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Discuss all things Destiny.
12/27/2013 4:49:35 AM
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Competitive Space Magic- Insight into PvP Mechanics

I've always been curious how space magic will play into multiplayer. So far, things like the Nova Bomb have been used as one hit kill nukes. But is every character going to have power-weapons with 10 second (or whatever) recharge times? Surely not- that would be ridiculous in a normal gamemode. How could space magic work in PvP? You can't always have access to it with those recharge times, because there would be little reason to use weapons! Bungie has said ammo for your third, power weapon will be rare on the maps and you will not spawn with any- but what would be the purpose of that if you always had a power weapon handy in the form of space magic? You would never need to look for ammo like that, so all of Bungie's effort to balance the game would be in vain. On the other hand, if you DID have space magic that recharged so quickly, and you bring your characters into PvP, then why would anybody ever pick a character other than, say, the Warlock? Insta-killing everybody repeatedly at mid-range seems like the best bet, right? Then today I listened to the GameInformer interview. The interviewer sounded almost bored to me, and while there were some good questions the couple I most wanted answered went with a "we can't talk about it yet" response. Understandable, but still frustrating. Alas though, at around 37:55 on the tape, Deej makes a passing comment that really caught my attention, and what I feel like is a little gem left that gives us some insight into Destiny's competitive multiplayer. [quote]"I'm gonna use the Nova Bomb whenever I earn the right to do so."[/quote] ... Interesting. What this seems to imply is that yes, we'll have space magic in PvP (as we've seen in some videos such as a clip with a Titan using his shield ability [of which the name escapes me]), but it also won't always be available like it seems to be in campaign. Now, it is understandable that Bungie can separate PvP and campaign since they have said when you encounter players in the wild, you won't be running the risk of being just killed by them- PvP is optional. Since the campaign is cooperative exclusively it seems, why not make other changes, like how abilities work, neh? So how will players 'earn' space magic in PvP? The first thing that comes to mind is a killstreak system. Now this is just a guess, but I don't feel like that will be the case. It just doesn't seem like Bungie's style. They want the game to be accessible to everybody, right? So limiting one of the most fun aspects of the game to those that can get a bunch of kills in a row wouldn't make sense based on what Bungie is aiming for with Destiny. Now, a killstreak I CAN see Bungie doing would be the number of kills regardless- every third or fifth kill and you get a power. Maybe every 7 or 10 you get your 'Super,' which is your most powerful ability (of which Nova Bomb is one, performed by holding both bumpers on the default controller layout). Perhaps normal Space Magic is always available, and only the Supers are restricted in such a way. If this is the case, then surely a move like the Warlock's Solar Flare cannot be a one hit kill (or really that powerful/accurate at all) in PvP for reasons listed at the beginning of this post. What other ways are there of earning Supers/ Space Magic? Time based? Nah- that's not 'earning.' Perhaps you get 'points' based on how you kill somebody/ for doing certain things, and you need a certain number of points to get it. Or maybe you need a kill that gives you a large amount of points (perhaps by doing something extraordinary, maybe like long range, or their body bounces and each time it hits something you get points, etc.) to unlock an ability. I'm very curious to see how they do it. But even without knowing the 'how,' it's still very interesting to know that there is going to be some way we have to 'earn' our Supers. I just hope it is limited to PvP and we can Super all day in campaign!

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  • They said only if you kill other guardians and get the orbs of light

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  • I went over some of the footage, found something very interesting in at least PvE. The 'grenade' type weapon in the focus recharges over time, or at least the Warlock's does. The super ability though recharges by picking up certain orbs. Perhaps glimmer. This is all verified by this video: [url=http://youtu.be/Y1OjUWw43co?t=3m50s]Right here[/url]

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  • I mentioned this below, but it bares repeating I suppose.... Following your line of reasoning I could see Supers working how grenades do in Halo. You start with a certain count/quantity. Once you use those, you have to pick up (or earn) some more. If you pair that with cool-down times, Supers are now way more balanced. Then again, I'm just speculating.

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  • [quote]... Interesting. What this seems to imply is that yes, we'll have space magic in PvP (as we've seen in some videos such as a clip with a Titan using his shield ability [of which the name escapes me]), but it also won't always be available like it seems to be in campaign. Now, it is understandable that Bungie can separate PvP and campaign since they have said when you encounter players in the wild, you won't be running the risk of being just killed by them- PvP is optional. Since the campaign is cooperative exclusively it seems, why not make other changes, like how abilities work, neh?[/quote]Objection! The moment that Bungie decides to modify the way that the Sandbox behaves for the PvE experience versus the PvP experience is the moment that Destiny will have failed to become a singular consistant and cohesive world, one of their most fundamental design pillars for the game. Bungie has already said that the weapons we find and use in PvE are the exact same weapons that we'll find and use in PvP, precisely because of the aforementioned design pillar. Why would they go through all that effort to balance a unified sandbox only to turn around and sacrifice it all to have two versions of every Super? Simply put, the reason why Supers were on such a short cool down during the E3 Demo is the same reason they had infinite ammo: because it was a demo and they decided to turn on all of the cheats. There's no reason why the cool downs for PvE Supers should be shorter than their PvP versions, especially if their power has remained identical to the PvP version. The enemies of the Last City might be numerous, but against firepower of that magnitude even they will be no match for a squad of Guardians. Supers are just that: Supers. For the most part they shouldn't neccessarily be as spammable as Armor Abillities were in Halo Reach, the button combination you have to press to access them are a clear indication of that. It seems like the sort of thing that should be balanced (globally) on a super by super basis. Something like Novablast definitely deserves a cooldown of 30 seconds to even perhaps a minute or more, whereas something like the Ghost Gun might get away with a 20 second cool down depending on what exactly it does. Heck, they can even channel their inner MOBA and go crazy with how the cool downs of some of the supers work. For example, the one Ghost Dagger Dash abillity we've seen the hunter use, what if it automatically resets when you kill an enemy with it? It would explain why the Hunter is always able to chain together so many kills in those trailers. There's quite a bit they can do to make Supers relevant without making them obnoxious or overpower the rest of the sandbox while scoring points with function and flavor, but trying to balance a PvP version and a PvE version of every super just opens so many cans of worms that it's not worth it for a single second. ...Though it's nice to see people discussing the Podcast :)

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    • Look at Reach and sigh inwardly as you see the pre-cursor to Destiny's [i]competitive[/i] MM.

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      • so?

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      • You can always count on burrito to make sense out of a rather dry discussion and bring the important talking points to light. Thanks for that. I was rapidly searching for anything new in that podcast and must have missed that.

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      • I'm surprised someone actually took time out of their day to write this long piece.

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      • Edited by Joyeuse7: 12/27/2013 11:45:37 PM
        I think supers will be on a timer that starts out cooling down when the game starts and whenever you respawn. That way it functions the same way for both PvE and PvP, it is something you earn (staying alive for a minute or more isn't easy in most shooters I've played), and it's not something that only the best players get to experience.

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      • Edited by Sven: 12/27/2013 8:32:11 PM
        I'd like to see a system that takes root in Halo 2/3's power up feature. By controlling portions of the map one can fully recharge or, more interestingly, partially recharge their abilities meter. I imagine there being several canisters around the map. Some located near the teams initial spawn and some in neutral positions to act as incentives. Mechanically, canisters would be collected and dropped in the same way ammo will in Destiny which was described in a podcast as collected and dropped like weapons in Halo. With respect to partial recharges, matches could get interesting where a player has very powerful super, needing 3 charges, on a map only having three canisters available. This would mean that players would have to play a VIP style meta game within the TS game. Either by escorting a player to the canisters spawn in enemy territory or seeking out, and killing, the player on the opposing team who has a charge. This act of cooperative play will grant your team the awesome power of the Traveler. In theory this could provide an interesting tipping point for matches. Instead of a dominating team holding the high ground from (15-5) to (50-10), they would feel the need to push further into enemy territory to use supers. This, if countered correctly, could give the losing team a chance to pull back in standing. One issue that comes to mind would be that using multi-charge supers would only be effective if you are in a completely cooperative group. Matching with randoms would result in fighting for the charges. Feeling nostalgic for sniper betraying on Coag? However, if bungie wants a more cooperative game, this mechanic would certainly drive people to play together.

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        • My geuss is they will make multiple game types. One with supers and another with no supers. Their goal is make a way for everyone to be happy with somthing. I personaly as a hunter would hate being Hulk Smashed and Nova Bombed all day by people, or people who know where all the ammo is for their Rocket Launchers and being shot by them all the time. If you went back to Halo: Reach there were gametypes with armor abilities and gametypes without armor abilities.

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          • 7min.40secs, DeeJ said you can use space magic to influence the flow of traffic on the battlefield. What i got from that wasn't necessarily a weapon to attack with, but use it sparingly in certain places that may change the structure of the map like powering up a bridge or destroying a sight line (avalanche/rock slide) etc. ?...

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            • What's the point? Multiplayer is gonna be like COD in Destiny, no reaction time, it's take two bullets to kill, all that stuff! Destiny confirmed that earlier. Space Magic will just make it "unique" This is not Bungie's style so I think it's all on Activation, but either way, multiplayer will already be messed up. Good post though.

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              • Im guessing movement abilities and grenades and what not would be on a timer with a recharge. While supers would be "get this many 'points' to use".

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              • I've been thinking about this lately too. I kind of hope that Supers don't have recharge times and must be earned as Deej said in the Gameinformer podcast. If not I can see the Hunter being OP in matchmaking, all you would have to do is wait for the recharge and just rush with a (1 shot kill/ Very powerful shot) pistol destroying people. And not only that, you get more than one shot I believe. Which makes me think that the Warlock for example, would have only 1 Nova Bomb and probably a long recharge rate. I also feel that the Nova Bomb would just lose straight up to a Golden/Ghost gun in a wide open map because it's lack off accuracy at range in comparison. Not to mention that the Warlock is the flimsiest in terms of Armour/Resistance to damage.

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              • Given the recent [i]GameInformer[/i] article about Character Progression, I am now super-excited to throw it in the face of the BUNGiE "High-Offensive Competitive Multiplayer" builds and see if I can build a [b]Nope.jpg Hunter[/b]. I would [i]love[/i] to be able to spec a Hunter into high mobility and disengagement tactics so I can control which fights I get involved in. Imagine an enemy Hunter popping [i]Ghost Gun[/i] and jumping in for the kill, only to have you swoop away and wait for his cooldowns before diving back in and snagging the kill. That seems like a much more satisfying flavor of play than playing the counter-cooldown game. That said, I'm also looking forward to having the ability to create a versatile build that will hopefully combine Sniping with the ability to get down and dirty once I use distance to even the odds. I literally cannot -wait- to see some of the competitive map layouts. [i]*giggles like a school girl*[/i]

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              • Could be that enough kills can unlock the ability, you have the ability equipped but maybe 5 kills gets you a few shots of the ghost gun.

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              • Edited by DJenser: 12/27/2013 3:36:23 PM
                2 things... 1) Supers are on a cooldown, which means that DeeJ will be using them whenever they refresh. Also, I believe the cooldowns for the Supers used in the E3 Gameplay Demo we greatly sped up so that we could see them employed multiple times in a variety of situations. I suspect that the actual cooldown times for Supers will be much slower, both in Campaign and PvP. 2) The video above shows a Nova BaBomb being used in PvP.

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                • Edited by FairlySplendid: 12/27/2013 3:15:12 PM
                  I took his comment about "earning the right" as DeeJ's fancy-speak, creative-writing way of saying [i]cool-down times.[/i] However, I could be completely wrong.

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                  • 3-Killstreak! Nova Bomb ready for deployment! *click* Nova Bomb inbound! VROOMM *boom* Double kill! +20 I really don't think kill streaks or any form of unlock-on-the-spot abilities will be in Destiny, DeeJ talks funny a lot and he was probably talking about unlocking the ability or just waiting for its cool down.

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                  • Maybe you'll have to find and pick up the energy to use it in the form of a power up.

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                  • Hmm, never really thought about it. I think just about every action - assist, kill, headshot,flag cap etc will have different values that contribute to your magic bar or whatever. Whether it will reset after each death is the kicker.

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                  • Wow. You got a lot going on there. Im just thinking couldnt it just be pick ups to drive people towards hills like a Halo overshield? Hard to say, I didn't listen to it all.

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                    • Competitive Space Magic <- oxymoron

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                    • Edited by Dredd: 12/27/2013 7:34:03 AM
                      No magic can protect against this insane amount of -blam!-­ry.

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                    • Edited by DE4THINC4RN4TE: 12/27/2013 7:05:28 AM
                      Perhaps you absorb the space magic of people you take down? A super would cost more than what you spawn with, so it would be earned.

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