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Destiny

Discuss all things Destiny.
Edited by Absolute Dark: 8/1/2014 10:03:48 PM
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(UPDATE - New Luke Smith Comments on neogaf)I am Guilty....I was wrong........I admit it. Raids/Nightfall/End Game

[b][u]New Luke Smith comments on Raids below this OP[/u][/b] I went back and watched the IGN Raid/Nightfall video a number of times and then sat back and thought for a while. Then I watched it again. I really did miss what Luke Smith was outlining for Raids. I am guilty of not seeing the trees through the forest. Not sure if it is because most of the last 15 plus years I have mainly been an FPS player, the fact that Bungie made Halo - a game I have loved and played since the beginning - or because of distractions while watching the video. It doesn't really matter. [b]Point is my stance on MM, or LFG, for Raids was wrong.[/b] Here is why I came to understand that. Destiny is truly different from what I and many others are used to. It is a grouping of a few different experiences drawn from FPS, open world exploration, campaign, MMO - Bungie calls in a shared world shooter for a good reason. Here is an analogy I hope you all can follow and appreciate, so read it through. Compare Destiny to a camp ground at the base of a tall mountain. I know, but stick with me. You can take your family and friends camping in the campground at the base of the mountain. There are campsites, running water, showers, a lake for swimming and fishing, natural trails, etc. [b]This is the base lower levels of Destiny[/b]. You need only basic camping knowledge and low level survival skills. [b]This is campaign, exploration and entry level Crucible.[/b] As your camping skills progress and your friends and family gain more experience you camp in more rugged terrain, tackle more arduous trails, begin climbing higher and more difficult areas. [b]This is higher level of mission play and the Crucible.[/b] Still with your regular friends and capable family members. Then, you reach a point were your desire to push higher up the mountain requires more preparation, better equipment and better training and skills. You make a series of attempts and find you are able to tackle this higher level of the mountain on a regular basis and take an experienced friend or two to count on for support and any trouble you get into. [b]Nightfall/High Level Crucible/Highest level campaign[/b] Then one day you look up to the peak of the mountain. You look at yourself. You feel you are experienced enough to make an assault to the peak, but know you can't do it alone. You need real experienced climbers to help you, the best gear and have to able to tap deep down into your inner survival instincts to reach the highest level. [b]This is the Raid.[/b] This is a simplistic analogy, but I hope that it helps other to understand what I finally did. No experienced and prepared and well equipped climber wants to group up with some people he found in town that say they are willing to try it. [b]Match Making.[/b] You want a group you can count on. Fellow climbers that know what this climb will take, have prepared for it physically, have the right equipment, etc. [b]This is your character development and weapons knowledge and build[/b].You want climbers that will not leave when the going gets tough, [b]randoms[/b], but will struggle through all the way to the top. It may take a few assault attempts to reach the top, but your team will make it if you stick together and support each other. After that, the next mountain will be different, offer different challenges, but you have a team that you can count on. I get it now. Thanks for reading. [b]New Luke Smith comments made on Neogaf.[/b] http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=123373556&postcount=1085 "I understand everyone's frustration about the decision to not have matchmaking in a post-matchmaking world. I also understand the limitations that this places on the activity's adoption at scale. That barrier to entry - the requirement that you get a group of people together and venture into something that is going to challenge your ability to work together (first) and your thumbs (second) - is a barrier I was willing to erect to preserve the activity goals. Bleeding edge hardcore groups will invest some significant amount of time in figuring out the encounters and making their way through the Vault. I fully expect groups to beat Normal mode in the first week its available. This is intentional, I'd like any group that is motivated and willing to cooperate to make their way through the Raid on Normal. I've talked some about thumbskill challenge vs. investment challenge vs. cooperation challenge in some interviews, and the Normal Raid difficulty prioritizes cooperation challenge and investment challenge. I expect Hard mode to take longer. Once your group learns the encounters, you will be able to get through the Raid significantly faster than 3 hours. However, the first time through, learning everything and arranging your group will take some hard-to-predict amount of time until some clan releases their strategies on YouTube. The Vault of Glass is in many ways an activity that will build groups from the disparate people who come together to try and make their way through it. It's very much a team-building exercise. If you're going to stream it this Fall, please feel free to let me know here. I'd love to tune in."

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  • The only issue I have is that the skills and equipment required are a matter of luck. I have played the raid for weeks with multiple characters and on both difficulties and have only received a single armor piece TOTAL. Why is there a ceiling on my progress before I reach level 30. Explain this to me Luke. I can't climb a mountain if acquiring a carabiner is out of my hands....

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  • Edited by Meta Sentient: 8/2/2014 4:36:30 AM
    Second and final comment in this thread. I am decidedly not an MMO player, in fact, due to my own obsessive compulsive disorder i try my best to never take up any game that doesn't have an explicit and fully defined ending point as i will be tempted to play forever. So just by buying into destiny im venturing into unknown territory (yes my first "MMO") However if the the beta strike was anything to judge by IM GODAMMN GLAD there isn't any matchaking in the raids. I probably ran the strike 15 times in beta and ended up with 2 people fighting the devil walker at least 65% of the time, the other 30% was some random guy trying to melee the wizards/captains/devil walker/sepiks whatever which usually led to a 3rd person for a few minutes until he/she/it inevitably died somewhere that i couldn't even attempt to respawn them. The maybe 3 times i ended with 3 people standing was twice with people from my list and the last time when i ran it public at the lvl 8 variant. That small experience has already taught me I don't want to attempt a raid with anyone that isn't serious about it and if you're serious about it the fairly simple entry requirements aren't gonna be what deters you. Good move bungie, you have one firm supporter.

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    • It's rare to find someone who will admit when they were wrong. I respect that.

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    • Edited by Jaccub: 8/2/2014 9:37:43 PM
      Bungie and Luke instructing us how to play the game.... Why not let us choose for ourselves? Its very rewarding to make friends in a group of PUGs and the joy of teaching others the fights and leading them through! Quit being such a control freak and give us raid match making! If you don't want/need to use it, you don't have to! No one is forcing it upon you.

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      • I'd rather take my chances with randoms than not try at all because I have no friends who play Destiny /or are in my timezone/or can't schedule 2-3 hours of solid gaming. Sure there will be multiple drop outs (they could be replaced with new randoms) and little communication, I'd probably lose, but still better than nothing.

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      • the more i see this debate, the more i lean towards not caring about it...weird huh?

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        • Interesting comments from Luke, but I still think it should be an option. I have a lot of people to play with (especialy people I have met on the boards) but sometines you just wont have enough people and want to play & dont mind teeming up randomly.

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        • cool read. at first i was kinda bummed about raids because i have no real life friends that play online. but the more i thought about it the less upset i became because i know ill be spending alot of time with this game and ill end up making enough new friends to play with on down the road. i feel like by the time im able to raid it will be very rewarding and fun for myself and whoever i end up going with. just one of many things im excited to do in this game. not having anyone to raid with right now is ok because when my time comes its just gonna be that much sweeter. i cant wait:)

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          • I never understood the the fuss about no raid matchmaking. most MMOa dont have match making for the true endgame content, even when they do no one uses it because you cant beat a hard raid without a "team". Now I do want matchmaking for "near" endgame stuff, which they have for all of the lvl 20+ strike missions.

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          • Truly couldnt say it better myself, you sir have proven a valuable point

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          • Back when I played MMOs, one of my biggest pet peeves were the dozens of people camped in front of raid entrances spamming LFG and LFRaid tells. It was one of the main reasons why I muted my General Chat channel. In Age of Conan, we'd occasionally ambush the half dozen or so random clanless spammers camped in front of Vistrix's Lair while we were waiting for the rest of our party to arrive. There was no raid matchmaking there & we did just fine.

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          • My biggest concern with not including a MM system for raids is how difficult it is going to be for 6 people to coordinate their schedules, and all set aside at least a few hours at the same time to dedicate to a raid. However, a standard MM queue where players line up and wait to join a PUG would fail the vast majority of players looking for a serious (or even halfway enjoyable) raid run. If raids in Destiny are going to be as difficult as Bungie claims, it will only take 1 inadequate player to ruin the whole experience for the other 5. If you have ever used MM in today's popular shooters (CoD, BF, Halo, etc.), you know the odds are pretty good that there will be at least 1 player on your team who refuses to listen and work as a team, or who can't communicate at all because they don't have a mic. The argument to include MM so that everyone has the opportunity to at least attempt a raid is legitimate, but there needs to be a better solution than just pairing random players together for a run that is almost guaranteed to fail. I think the Destiny companion app could serve as the tool to connect players looking to fill out a 6 man fireteam for a serious attempt at running a raid. Players could fill out a calendar of sorts with the raid(s) they want to run and the time(s) they are available to raid. A player who wants to organize and lead a raid could view the available players and their gear based off filters they set: -DNF% -Base stats -# of times a particular raid has been attempted -Furthest point of the raid completed -Do they have a mic -Goals/objectives the player wants to complete As the leader finds players that meet their criteria they can send invites and establish the 6 man fireteam directly through the app. The app could also support a chat/text function so that the team could communicate without being logged in to Destiny. Is this the "better" solution to MM? I do not know, but it is an alternative that would allow everyone who wants to experience raids the opportunity to find other players, while eliminating some of the randomness/luck of MM.

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            • If you need a little distraction from the trenches of the normal forum posts check out a little fan fiction I wrote. http://www.bungie.net/en/Forum/Post/67274716/0/0

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            • Edited by MuchStache: 8/2/2014 10:02:47 PM
              I don't really get why people (even devs) spend time on NeoGAF, though. That place is like a constant hate-train on everything.

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            • If they add some decent communication in-game, I'll be fine without matchmaking. I'd actually prefer it to be like that, but if it doesn't step up in terms of communication they'll have no choice but to add matchmaking.

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              • The only game I've been excited for like Destiny was World Of Warcraft. After Blizzard put in place the MM system I felt like a part of the game was taken away. I prefer to have to look for players to do a raids or something of high difficulty as long as it doesn't require too much time to form a 6 man strike team.

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                • when he says "when it is available" does that mean it wont have access at launch to the vault? and another thing, people were just mentioning raids not "the vault of glass" so does this mean the only raid at first will be the vault and that isn't even available at launch???? if so that it kind of a dissapointment

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                  • Uh. It's gonna take more than 3 hours at first? :/

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                    • Edited by SquattingTurtle: 8/2/2014 5:04:47 PM
                      [quote]"I understand everyone's frustration about the decision to not have matchmaking in a post-matchmaking world."[/quote]

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                    • Hard Mode Less than 3 hours? Weren't they talkin about the hardest thing ever done? Like some elite clans 16 hours? Wtf bungie -blam!-ing up big time..

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                      • this analogy makes sense :0

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                        • Since it sounds like we are going to need 6 people in a party to even attempt a raid, we might as well get busy forming some clans to experience said raids rather than just complaining about how there is no MM feature. You can check out my clan here: http://www.bungie.net/en/Clan/Detail/163417 If you are already in a clan or aren't interested in joining my clan for whatever reason, have a headset and are excited for the release of Destiny on 9/9, please feel free to add me to your PSN friends list: Chrono_Commando

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                        • Edited by TwigTwig: 8/2/2014 11:05:23 AM
                          'I've come to realise that I don't want to utilise matchmaking, so I'm going to go out of my way to make sure you can't!' I want those 5 minutes of my life back.

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                          • I have no problem with no mm in raids. In this context it make sense. But no chat with your team in pvp simply does not. No chat with your team in strike missions does not. No proximity chat... Meh. I can get behind that. But team chat should be standard.

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                            • OP is OP. Please Nerf.

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                            • I can't say I'm a big fan of that analogy. In life, if you perish while trying to summit, there is no second chance. In a game like Destiny, you can try over and over again if you perish. There's a much smaller incentive in Destiny to always make sure you're grouped with the best of the best. Regardless, let's not all freak out about that which we have yet to see. I played mmo's for years... long before WoW when you sometimes needed raid groups of 100 or more the first time you fought a boss. Before long you figure out the proper tactics to take on the same boss with 8. Eventually you can do it with a PUG because everyone knows the proper strategy. I'm sure if you want to find a clan or new friends to do a raid in Destiny it won't be too difficult. Also, while I really don't think matchmaking would screw up the game, I also don't think casual gamers will be unable to find raid groups without it. An LFG feature might be a good idea though.

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