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Uh huh, tell that to the people who were able to successfully coordinate 40 people for 40 man raids in Molten Core (and AQ) in vanilla WoW. That's without mentioning the fact that were far less people playing vanilla WoW than will be playing Destiny. Seriously, it will not be all that difficult to find people to raid with if you really want to. [u][b]Update #8: [/b][/u] [url=http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=123373556&postcount=1085]Here, Bungie Lead Designer Luke Smith on Raid MM:[/url] [quote]I understand everyone's frustration about the decision to not have matchmaking in a post-matchmaking world. I also understand the limitations that this places on the activity's adoption at scale. That barrier to entry - the requirement that you get a group of people together and venture into something that is going to challenge your ability to work together (first) and your thumbs (second) - is a barrier I was willing to erect to preserve the activity goals. Bleeding edge hardcore groups will invest some significant amount of time in figuring out the encounters and making their way through the Vault. I fully expect groups to beat Normal mode in the first week its available. This is intentional, I'd like any group that is motivated and willing to cooperate to make their way through the Raid on Normal. I've talked some about thumbskill challenge vs. investment challenge vs. cooperation challenge in some interviews, and the Normal Raid difficulty prioritizes cooperation challenge and investment challenge. I expect Hard mode to take longer. Once your group learns the encounters, you will be able to get through the Raid significantly faster than 3 hours. However, the first time through, learning everything and arranging your group will take some hard-to-predict amount of time until some clan releases their strategies on YouTube. The Vault of Glass is in many ways an activity that will build groups from the disparate people who come together to try and make their way through it. It's very much a team-building exercise. If you're going to stream it this Fall, please feel free to let me know here. I'd love to tune in.[/quote] [b][u]Update #6[/u][/b]-- [url=http://m.ign.com/articles/2014/07/30/destiny-the-endgame-is-only-the-beginning-ign-first] From the IGN article discussing Destiny's endgame:[/url] [quote]Raids are “extremely crafted,” six-player, friends-only gauntlet runs that might best be described as gut-checks. Yes, they will be difficult, and they will absolutely require communication and cooperation. That’s why Bungie isn’t supporting matchmaking for them; the developers don’t want them to be played by disparate groups of strangers. But Smith is quick to point out that they’re not like Strikes – the instanced dungeon-like runs that might take a mere 20-60 minutes – but more like MMO raids in that you’re going to want to buckle up and get comfortable for a couple hours... ...And then, Smith added ominously, “It's getting people together and getting them into a group and making your way down to the Vault of Glass and seeing what's at the bottom of it – if you can get that far.” That’s not to say raids will be impossible, but this is Bungie, after all – a studio famous for challenging fans with the Legendary difficulty setting in its Halo games: “One of the things we have never talked about – we haven't really talked about raiding at all,” Smith starts. “One of the things we certainly haven't talked about is that [raids aren’t] an activity that we expect you to get through the first time through."[/quote] [b][u]Update:[/u][/b] Difference between using the forums or companion app to find people versus using a random matchmaking system: First, I can view all of your stats, gear, and achievements on the forums in thirty seconds. Or, I can access all of your stats, gear, and achievements through the Companion App on my smart phone in thirty seconds. I now have a pretty good idea of whether or not you are a decent player, and I can make an educated decision on whether or not I think you will make a good addition to my raid team. We can also coordinate classes and subclasses along with the gear we think will fit each person best depending on how the others are geared. Does this seem like a random process? [u][b]Update #2[/b][/u] -- All players can access all of Destiny's content. However, raids are elitist by nature due to a convergence of factors: they [should be] extremely challenging, they take a lot of time to gear up for, they take a lot of time to complete, they require a lot of motivation on behalf of the player and the team, they require the team to cooperate even when the **** hits the fan, etc. (This is why I've never been more than a casual raider.) Raids are, for better or worse, not meant for the player who isn't determined to defeat it. Any sod can roll through the story missions and strikes, but raids are an altogether different beast. [b][u]Update #7[/u][/b] - On being asked what "my" issue with raid matchmaking is: [quote] What does happen, however, is the people who pug the raids generally complain and complain and complain that they can never finish a raid no matter how hard they try and that x, y, and z mechanics need to be nerfed (when in reality they don't as 99.9% it's a coordination issue), and these things then get nerfed. Then, something else needs to be nerfed. Before you know it (and this has happened to every game that has implemented a group finding system for difficult PvE content), content is being nerfed across the board. I seriously despise having to say this because I rarely get along with this group, but the elite and/or hardcore crowd is necessary for long-running games to survive. The hardcore crowd tests all of the new endgame content because they are always the first to get there, they give the best feedback on mechanics as they've been playing for far longer and with much more gusto than the average gamer, and they not only stick around the longest, but they are consistent in that there aren't large gaps in their playing record as is seen in many, many long-running games. (Ask someone how many times they've quit and returned to WoW or other MMO's.)[/quote] [u][b]Update #3[/b][/u] -- Changed Title [u][b]Update #4[/b][/u] -- [url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yAjJNyJoYeI]Video on the Vault of Glass[/url] [u][b]Update #5[/b][/u] -- Fellow forum member H0RSE made an eloquent point on what raiding actually is about: [quote]Sorry, but this, more or less, are how raids work. You don't go on a Raid based on a whim or boredom. You plan for them, you schedule them, and at the very least, you have a roster of experienced, known players, ready to help you out. You seem to be getting frustrated at something you don't fully understand. Raids don't behave like Strikes or even a pvp match, where random matchmaking can be viable. Like the OP said, Raids are a different beast. Raids tend to be the creme de la creme in games like this, in terms of challenge, in terms of preparation, in terms of time required, rewards granted, and even bragging rights. Hell, most raids have requirements before you can even enter, whether it be a key or some other item, a high enough gear score, or whatever else.[/quote]