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9/24/2004 8:41:26 AM
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The New Seventh Column "Group" Review *UPDATED*
I have been around the 7th column for quite some time now. I officially joined as "mrsmiley" over 2 years ago, but was a semi-active member as "thesmileguy" for about a year before that. All that to say, I am no newcomer to the Seventh Column. Also, and I think many would agree, I know how to run a chapter pretty well. [url=http://www.bungie.net/fanclub/418/Group/GroupHome.aspx]MSXL[/url] came from nothing to one of the most influencial and prominant chapters out there, and I am proud of this! I do not say these things to build myself up at all, but rather to lay the groundwork that my critique of this new Column has some history to back it up!
The new Seventh Column is very different in many ways, and similar in some. Some things are great, some things aren't so great. Here is my feedback, in simple format, as a "veteran" of this magnificant online community.
[u][b]The Founder[/u][/b]
[*] ++ Security roles are bad ass! You can group your members to have different privledges, thereby removing the hassle of changing the same privs for 10 different people when you want to make a change. Now all you have to do is add someone to the appropriate security role group, and BAM! They can only do exaclty what you allow them to! (MWUAHAhahaha) You can make up to 15 of these groups. Rock on.
[*] + You can now edit a person's security settings straight from the memberlist. Thank god! (You can also remove, or blacklist them from the same list. Very handy.)
[*] + Themes are back! Right now the groups may all look like polished drones, but soon Bungie (and fans!) will be hooking us up with new themes to set our group apart from each other.
[*] + All of the new and old founder tools are pretty straightforward and easy to understand. (Explained well.)
[*] +/- The ability to choose a unique "quick" link is kinda cool, but not really that quick. Basically, for my chapter the link is "/Fanclub/msxl/GroupHome.aspx" instead of "/Fanclub/418/GroupHome.aspx". Not all that effective, but a nice touch, I suppose.
[b][u]The Forum[/u][/b]
[*] + It is nice to be able to lock/pin topics now.
[*] +/- As with it's integration to the new Bungie.net, the new forums have same pros and cons. (No search?)
[*] - No more creative (custom) forum names. Damn.
[b][u]The Resources[/u][/b]
[*] ++ Aside from still being able to choose whether members or non-members can view your resources (databases), you can now limit it to moderators, and administrators as well. Sweet!
[*] + 25 Custom databases is much more than I expected. Way to go!
[*] +/- The custom resource tool is pretty much the same, without giving the option to form rows vertically. Oh well, no biggie.
[*] - - You're telling me that I can't delete or customize the Guestbook, Contact Info, FAQ, Links, or Articles resources? Why? What if I don't want to worry about modding a Guest book, or hassling with an FAQ! Maybe a later version will allow us to choose what we put on the "quick acces" bar. Now THAT would be cool!
[b][u]The Main Page[/b][/u]
[*] + You can now go to any forum on B.net from the forum box. Cool.
[*] + News posting has been improved, with the ability to post multiple announcements in the same "Top Story" format as Bungie.net. Nice touch.
[*] + There is also an option when posting news, to have a copy automatically posted to your forum, with a link connecting the two. I used to have to manually do this. Awesome!
[*] +/- Everything you need is right there at the top of the page in the main nav bar and the pop-up ones. Cool... wait a minute, where is the "goto chapter" scroll menu? Awe man, I have to go to my profile to find a different chapter to check out. 56K users will love this little added step.
[*] +/- The "most popular thread" box is pretty cool, although I think the previous "last 5 posts" box was a little more helpful.
[*] +/- No more front page polls... but you can still make them in the forums. Meh.
[*] - The group description kinda blends right in with the news. Gives the page kind of a sloppy look. I'm sure there will be themes that fix this, but so far, with both themes provided, I believe it gives that effect.
[*] - Why are we required to fill out both the "summary text" and the "full news story" text? What if we just want to post a short new blurp that everyone can read without clicking. I know this can still be done, but why should we be forced to write something pointless for when people click "continues". It would be nice to make that text optional, and have the "continues" button only if there is added text.
[b][u]Final Words[/b][/u]
It seems to me that the "new hotness" was definitly created by admins, with admins in mind. This is why the whole new system is so 50/50 in it's efforts to outperform the previous version. Sure, the new founder features are great, and there a few new tools that have been badly needed, but where it's strength in administration excells, it's appeal to regular members wanes. There really just isn't the versatility of the old chapter set-up. There is a good reason for this: Halo 2 means tons of traffic, and all around wear and tear on the new server. But in the end, was it really better for Bungie to sacrifice the versatile appeal of chapters for the more uniform and founder friendly rules of the groups? Only time will tell.
[b][u]A Personal Opinion[/b][/u]
[i]>In order to keep this review as unbaised as possible, I have removed my personal opinion. I'm sure this will be posted on my chapter when I get a better feel for this new system.<[/i]
*If you think I have forgotten something, or have something to add, please send me a [url=http://www.bungie.net/Account/Profile.aspx?memberID=782]personal message[/url], and I will gladly post it up. Comments welcome!
[Edited on 9/24/2004 3:57:49 PM]
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Wow, you hit the nail on the head. That is a perfect summary of my feelings as a chapter founder. My thoughts are that the good simply outweigh the bad. What was sacrificed in induviduality was made up for in functionality. I'm sure that with the newfound integration with b.net any signifigant changes here will be reflected in the 'groups.' Man...it's going to be hard getting used to calling them that.
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Great summary mrsmiley. But I still miss the old collumn. RIP [Edited on 9/24/2004 12:59:43 AM]
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] littlerat Great summary mrsmiley. But I still miss the old collumn. RIP[/quote]I concur with that. Some stuff is really crappy, like the no chapter links directly there for you to use. And a few bugs in the titles part. But a big beef I have is with the lack of a text box in some database places. If you're given 1000 characters max, it shouldn't all have to go on one line. There will be bug fixes and tweaks made over the next few days and weeks, so I'll wait for any major complaints until then. P.S. Adding the link to the main Bungie forums through the chapters is a big plus. [color=red][b][i]ANNOYING BOLD-FACED COMPLAINT:[/i][/b][/color] I just accidentally deleated 30 mins worth of database work. Nice move. P.S. Due to the computer saving the text, I got it all back really quiick-like. But I still hate that type of text field. [Edited on 9/24/2004 11:12:41 AM]
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I realize that there will be plent yof bug fixes... but all the things that I have problems with aren't bugs! :*(
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I have too strongly agree with Mr.Smiley. The old column may have been slower and not quite as pretty, but many of us founders put a hell of a lot of time into our work on our chapters, and to have it all lost is kind of a big blow. Besides, we made the system work for us, and many of us were turning out some amazing chapters. I highly doubt my chapter will be able to survive, because it no longer has anything to have itself stand out from the rest of chapters...sorry, "groups." This sucks...
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Please keep your feedback in the pinned thread. And Smiley - read the FAQ for answers to your questions about getting your data back. It clearly says what to do. ..and if I'm reading your blow-by-blow correctly, it seems there are way more positives yet you decide to give us a 5 out of 10? Oh, and the old Column only supported 6 Columns per DB too. ANd you can create 25 custom DBs. It's all explained in the Groups 101 faq.
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Very good points, Sketch. I did read the FAQ, but somehow I skipped over the DB point. I will edit my thread accordingly. Sorry about making a new post for feedback... I didn't think it would be a problem. =)
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Come on people. It may not be the 8th wonder of the world that can walk your dog, mow your lawn, and scratch your ass with a laser beam from space, like you all [I]know[/I] you were hoping it would be. But in the end, I think the change is good. Evolve or die. [Edited on 9/24/2004 12:21:20 PM]
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Grimes Come on people. It may not be the 8th wonder of the world that can walk your dog, mow your lawn, and scratch your ass with a laser beam from space, like you all [I]know[/I] you were hoping it would be. But in the end, I think the change is good. Evolve or die.[/quote] I didn't expect it to be monumentaly better than the first, but I expected it to at elast offer the same versatility as far as each individual chapter goes. For me, if it was the excact same 7th Column, just with a new facelift, I would be happy. However, there are a lot of things left to be desired. Granted, there are also a lot of good things!
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I give the new column a 40/50. I give it that on account of the lack of current themes, lack of face and databases, and confusing navigation for the chapters.
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I got lost trying to find the way to the mouse just looking at it. Good concept, but themes need some work! :)
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[quote][b]mrsmiley said:[/b] I didn't expect it to be monumentaly better than the first, but I expected it to at elast offer the same versatility as far as each individual chapter goes. For me, if it was the excact same 7th Column, just with a new facelift, I would be happy. However, there are a lot of things left to be desired. Granted, there are also a lot of good things! [/quote] I agree. Sorry to be knocking your baby sketch, but it's nothing compared to the old column in terms of proffessionality. As smily said in his review, some things are left to be desired. Why should we feel any different? If you don't want bad feedback, why ask for any in the first place? (No offence, but I don't see why you should get offended because we don't see eye to eye on the new hotness. We appriciate what you at bungie are doing for us, and would never criticize your proffessionalisim unless we know beyond the shadow of a doubt you could have done better. We know you can, and have seen the awesome things you do every day to make Bungie.Net a home away from home for each of us. Thank you so much for that, but please don't be offended it we make comments. We're only trying to help.) After toying with it all day, there are some things that assist greatly and commit to building a better and more proffessional expieriance, but some things are a living hell, like the way the chapter description and motto blend in with the news section. Actually, with the current default theme, it looks no different than the bungie forums in most ways, other that a few extremly minor differences. Not to mention your scrolling sidebar from hell being in my way every time I want to make a newspost, work a database, or write an article. The point is, you've never done anything to dissapoint us in the past, and have never let us down, which you still haven't. I guess we're just used to getting so much more out of you than what we got here. The new 7th C is good, but it's not bungierific. I'm glad that you take the time to provide a form of free hosting for your fans, which undoubtedly takes a good deal of time and money. However you should have just taken three or four weeks and worked on the overall look of the new groups rather than releasing it in a one-size-fits-all-and-blends-itself-all-together. The first impression is by far the longest-standing inpression, and with something this anticipated can do more damage than good if not polished completly before releasing. Sure, there are manymore plusses, but deep down people care more about quality than quanity. We got a load of quanity in terms of new options and forum specs, but we recieved a very limited amout of quality in how the look of the new 7th was implemented, and in all reality, I've heard it called everything from "intresting" to "-blam!-" on MSN today. There are so many mixed feelings due to this lack of physical polish, but can easily be fixed should you at Bungie studios update the look and themes of the new "groups." people don't just want features, they want somthing pleasing to the eyes, and in most cases, the new hotness just burns the heck outa most people's eyes. Again, great job on the new features. Couldn't have asked for better, but for the love of all that is sacred and holy get some good-looking skins up! [Edited on 9/24/2004 2:28:20 PM]
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The problem is that we don't have 3 to 4 weeks. Check your calendar. See how close November 9th is? We have to get the stat stuff up and working, and we don't have time to polish up everything. The purpose of this release was to make sure it can handle a million new people from Halo 2 coming in. There will be hotfixes and one more major release before Halo 2 is released. You have to understand, though, the choice was either leave the 7th column off or release it now. For the most part, it is doing well, aside from a lack of themes, a few bugs, and a lack of people willing to read simple instructions. 6 custom databases? Come on! It says on the page that you have 25 of them. You have 6 columns per custom resource, which is EXACTLY what you had before. The only difference is that you can only have 25 of them. In addition, a lot of our frustration has to do with people whining about simple stuff. Do you know what the number one complaint is so far? People -blam!-ing about the name "Groups"! Good lord, people! The groups name is a generic term used to describe any subsite, be it a chapter or a clans (a feature coming with Halo 2 that will have bungie.net integration). A chapter isn't a clan, so we went with groups. Then there is the issue of the themes. Part of the confusion is about how one broken theme got released. But we didn't launch with a theme system, or forum system. It takes time to polish all this stuff, and we would appreciate a little patience. If you're going to complain, complain about things that are actually problems, not stupid stuff like the name "Groups" or how there aren't any user created themes.
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I have a 'real' complaint The FAQ at my chapter has the question repeated twice in every entry and I checked to see if I could just edit the question in all of the entries and have it ask the Q once but it was shown it was only typed once so I can't fix that.
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Sorry I guess this might be off-topic, but I need some help.. Hey achronos and others I'm really confused about something...Is there a way I create one custom database where my members can edit and add entries and then have another where they can't do those things? I can't figure out how to do that...seems like it's either you let them edit or add for all or none.
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[quote]Acronos said: If you're going to complain, complain about things that are actually problems, not stupid stuff like the name "Groups" or how there aren't any user created themes[/quote] I don't have a problem with the word group, but the ONLY thing there is to gripe about is the look, and we little trolls simply must have SOMTHING to gripe about! I appriciate B.net's dedication to the fanbase, and thank you for it, Bungie! But please, we're locked in our houses playing FABLE to kill the time until Halo 2! How many Balvarines do you think we can slay before we go mad and rave around your forums griping about stupid things to hide our nervous anticipation? Not many, achronos, not many.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Achronos The problem is that we don't have 3 to 4 weeks. Check your calendar. See how close November 9th is? We have to get the stat stuff up and working, and we don't have time to polish up everything. The purpose of this release was to make sure it can handle a million new people from Halo 2 coming in. There will be hotfixes and one more major release before Halo 2 is released. You have to understand, though, the choice was either leave the 7th column off or release it now.[/quote] I completely understand. Like I said, I can see that this build was made more for functionality than for a rich fan environment. I am sure there will be many updates on the way [i]after[/i] you are all done perfecting Halo 2! [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Achronos For the most part, it is doing well, aside from a lack of themes, a few bugs, and a lack of people willing to read simple instructions. 6 custom databases? Come on! It says on the page that you have 25 of them. You have 6 columns per custom resource, which is EXACTLY what you had before. The only difference is that you can only have 25 of them.[/quote] Hehe, I actually forgot to take that out yesterday. I wrote this review pretty late at night. There were a couple things I accidently left in after reading the FAQ, and as sketch pointed out, I forgot a couple! =/ [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Achronos In addition, a lot of our frustration has to do with people whining about simple stuff. Do you know what the number one complaint is so far? People -blam!-ing about the name "Groups"! Good lord, people! The groups name is a generic term used to describe any subsite, be it a chapter or a clans (a feature coming with Halo 2 that will have bungie.net integration). A chapter isn't a clan, so we went with groups. Then there is the issue of the themes. Part of the confusion is about how one broken theme got released. But we didn't launch with a theme system, or forum system. It takes time to polish all this stuff, and we would appreciate a little patience. If you're going to complain, complain about things that are actually problems, not stupid stuff like the name "Groups" or how there aren't any user created themes.[/quote] I couldn't agree more. I am trying my best to refer to everything in the new terms to help spread them. Doesn't really bother me at all, it is just a change we have to get used to. Thanks a lot for your response, Achronos. I hope you guys are pissed at the negative feedback people are giving. As I have said several times, there is much left to be desired, but I completely understand that you guys wanted to get this out so people could start using it in light of Halo 2. I can't wait to see the new stuff you guys will have in the future!
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Halo53 I have a 'real' complaint The FAQ at my chapter has the question repeated twice in every entry and I checked to see if I could just edit the question in all of the entries and have it ask the Q once but it was shown it was only typed once so I can't fix that.[/quote] Yea mine does that too!
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It's funny when Bungie comes out with something new and great. There is always some that have to whine about something. Hold on, I saved a message of mine to Word about complaining. Ah, here it is, I call it "Complaining Reform": Aren't you all happy because you are complaining? What did you gain from it? Are you happy that Bungie now knows that you are disappointed in them? Well Bungie gets all this kind of stupidity, all the time. I see it happen on other websites. If you want to become a better member, stop complaining, and try and help Bungie out. You aren't helping them by complaining. It doesn't really mean anything to anyone by complaining about something everyone [i]could[/i] complain about. [Edited on 9/24/2004 10:53:51 PM]
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Josher 35 It's funny when Bungie comes out with something new and great. There is always some that have to whine about something. Hold on, I saved a message of mine to Word about complaining. Ah, here it is, I call it "Complaing Reform": Aren't you all happy because you are complaining? What did you gain from it? Are you happy that Bungie now knows that you are disappointed in them? Well Bungie gets all this kind of stupidity, all the time. I see it happen on other websites. If you want to become a better member, stop complaining, and try and help Bungie out. You aren't helping them by complaining. It doesn't really mean anything to anyone by complaining about something everyone [i]could[/i] complain about. [/quote] I hope you're not saying that in reference to my post! I am simply outlining different pros and cons of the new system, with full realization that it is the first version. =)
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] mrsmiley I hope you're not saying that in reference to my post! I am simply outlining different pros and cons of the new system, with full realization that it is the first version. =)[/quote] Smiley you know I'm smarter than that. I was saying that in reference to the employee's posts about people that were complaining about the "7th New Hotness". I need to check out Halobabies, I've forgotten about it since the update has been finished. [Edited on 9/24/2004 5:46:31 PM]
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Ok, heh sorry bout that, man. =) Just wanted to make sure my words weren't taken wrong.
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Honestly, though. Bungie has one of the most mature and constructive fanbases out there, and for good reason. If you want to see a fanbase that's [i]really[/i] immature and spoiled, look at Valve.
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Wow...I wasn't expecting a report on this. Good job anyway. I've been around on the 7th column for some time two. I'm staff on the chapter (CHAPTER!!!) DarkHalo and I'd say we're very well off. I'll give my opinion of the situation. I'd say some of those new options help out quite a bit. The 5 most popular threads is cool, but the 5 latest posts was a lot more helpfull. The layout is just uninviting. With no activo meter or poll on the front page, it just seems like a bunch of text bunched together. All and all, I think it is worse then the old version. I know they had to change servors and stuff because of the expected traffic, but couldn't they have kept things the way they were? Change is good and all but not when the old ways were better. So I'm sorry to just discredit all of your work Bungie.
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[quote] It's funny when Bungie comes out with something new and great. There is always some that have to whine about something. Hold on, I saved a message of mine to Word about complaining. Ah, here it is, I call it "Complaining Reform": Aren't you all happy because you are complaining? What did you gain from it? Are you happy that Bungie now knows that you are disappointed in them? Well Bungie gets all this kind of stupidity, all the time. I see it happen on other websites. If you want to become a better member, stop complaining, and try and help Bungie out. You aren't helping them by complaining. It doesn't really mean anything to anyone by complaining about something everyone could complain about.[/quote] We can be whiny b******s from time to time. But why is it wrong for us to make our voices heard when we think Bungie did something wrong? I'm sure Bungie isn't all offended that easily if people start complaining about things here are there. So I'm sorry is not all of us don't immediatly accept change, especially when it is not a change for the good.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] MichaelFrank [quote] We can be whiny b******s from time to time. But why is it wrong for us to make our voices heard when we think Bungie did something wrong? I'm sure Bungie isn't all offended that easily if people start complaining about things here are there. So I'm sorry is not all of us don't immediatly accept change, especially when it is not a change for the good.[/quote] Have you really given Bungie a chance to show the new 7th column? They haven't added anything to it yet. As Achronos said it's going to get polished. Just wait and see before you start whining about how you don't like it. If it's in its last phase and you still don't like, feel free to start complaining. Just don't ever spam on the forum.
