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Hylebos

Hylebos

Edited: 1/21/2013 7:49:48 PM
[quote][b]Bungie.next Edit:[/b] [url=http://www.bungie.net/en-US/View/community/Forum/Post?id=4022707&path=1]Click here[/url] to see the original post unbutchered by the way comments are now sorted in Bungie.next[/quote]For being nothing more than a number that pads the size of your e-peen, Gamerscore and Achievements have a profound effect on a gamer's behavior. Some of you might think that Achievements are pointless, and that their selection is entirely arbitrary, but a good developer knows that Achievements will be chased and pursued by the majority of the population. Developers can take advantage of these completionistic tendencies to leverage the most out of their games. In this thread I wanted to reflect upon a variety of Achievements from Halo 3, Halo 3: ODST, and Halo Reach to discover their various applications and to evaluate how successful those particular Achievements ultimately were. By first looking back upon the past we might be able to discover the road forward and predict the sorts of Achievements that Bungie might include in the Destiny Universe. Before we continue, I highly encourage the reader to refresh their memory of Halo's Achievements. Provided below are lists of Achievements in each game for your convenience: [quote][url=http://www.xbox360achievements.org/game/halo-3/achievements/]Halo 3 Achievements[/url] [url=http://www.xbox360achievements.org/game/halo-3-odst/achievements/]Halo 3: ODST Achievements[/url] [url=http://www.xbox360achievements.org/game/halo-reach/achievements/]Halo Reach Achievements[/url][/quote]A perceptive reader might notice that there are no more than 50 Achievements collectively worth more than 1000 Gamerscore in the base game. This is one of many guidelines that Microsoft gives to developers to try to maintain the integrity of their gamerscore system. Naturally the restriction on the number of Achievements is the more important of the two limitations because it restricts the number of different experiences that we can create for players. It's why it's essential to maximize the impact of those 50 Achievements; every nambly pambly achievement implemented takes up a slot that a good achievement could otherwise occupy. Now that's not to say that every Achievement needs to be super hardcore and memorable, afterall, the primary application of Achievements is to encourage gamers to discover the different features of a game. As mundane and unmemorable as some of these Achievements might seem, they are an important tool for turning an uninvested player into a fan. For example, consider the following:[quote][b]Halo Reach - A Storage Solution (5G)[/b] Used the File Browser to upload a file to your File Share.[/quote]For those of us who frequent Bungie.net, uploading content to our fileshare is second nature, and this is probably an achievement we unlocked without trying and one that we quickly forgot about soon after. But for an uninvested player, this achievement is a gateway to bigger and better things. [i]A Storage Solution[/i] serves as a carrot on a stick that motivates players to teach themselves how to upload content to their fileshare. Some gamers might not have even realized that they have a way of sharing user created content with friends were it not for this achievement. And once they've taught themselves how to use this valuable tool, who knows how far they will go? Before long our uninvested gamer might be uninvested no longer and is now a proud member of the Bungie community, and it's all thanks to a single mundane Achievement. However, not every achievement can get away with being super easy, otherwise completing the achievement set wouldn't be much of an achievement now would it? As a result, the second major application of achievements is to challenge gamers and encourage them to step outside of their comfort zones to improve their skills. It seems pretty self explanatory, but here's an example anyways:[quote][b]Halo Reach - A Monument To All Your Sins (150G)[/b] Completed every mission in Halo: Reach alone, on Legendary.[/quote]This achievement is a side addition to the usual [i]Campaign Complete: Legendary[/i] achievement that has been in previous Halo games. Whereas those achievements could be unlocked if you played with stronger friends who did all the fighting for you, this Achievement does a good job at taking things one step further and issuing a personal challenge that will push many gamers to their limits. The final application of Achievements is to create unique and memorable situations for the player to encounter. Personally the achievements that have been the most memorable for me were difficult ones that I struggled to overcome, or ones that placed me in interesting and oddball situations like:[quote][b]Halo 3: ODST - Vidmaster Challenge: Classic (25G)[/b] Finish any level solo on Legendary, on LIVE, with no shots fired or grenades thrown.[/quote]A shooter usually requires you fight back against your opponents to complete a level, so finding myself forced play the pacifist and avoid mortar fire like a madman as I floored it through Uplift Reserve was a very memorable experience because it was so different from the rest of the achievements in the set. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Out of the three Bungie games that we are examining today, I definitely think that Halo 3 had the most difficult and interesting achievement set. Unfortunately, difficulty is not neccessarily a good thing, especially as many of Halo 3's multiplayer achievements were very flawed. For example, consider:[quote][b]Halo 3 - Two for One (5G)[/b] Score a Double Kill with a single spartan laser shot in a ranked free for all playlist (Online).[/quote]The problem with multiplayer achievements like this is that they have less to do with personal skill and more to do with being lucky enough to be in the right place at the right time. Not to mention, while they seem difficult, it is very easy to cheese on these achievements and unlock them with the help of a cooperative opponent. If you're going to make a challenging achievement, you should make it so that there are no easy ways out, otherwise it cheapens the experiences of anyone who tries legitimately. You'll notice that Bungie did a relatively good job of removing asinine multiplayer achievements like these from their future games, save for the exception of DLC Achievements, which always seem to feature their fair share of ridiculous multiplayer objectives. To be fair, there's not much else you can do when making Map Pack Achievements, perhaps aside from hiding skulls on them, which was done in the Mythic Map Pack. It's one of the reasons that I'm looking forward to the Comet Expansions that are set to come out each year after every Destiny game, if they are more than just simple multiplayer maps, we might get the chance to finally see a decent list of DLC achievements. Another problem with Halo 3's achievement set is that while it did a good job distributing achievements evenly between Campaign and Multiplayer, there was a distinct lack of Achievements created to help new players discover features compared to the future Halo games. It would have been easy to create room for these sorts of achievements by combining several similar campaign achievements into one, or by cutting out some of extraneous multiplayer achievements, but ultimately I feel that their final list of achievements were very understandable. Afterall, way back when they still hadn't realized that Forge was going to take off like it did, or that sharing custom content would become such a huge part of the community. In their minds, Campaign and Multiplayer were probably the two major parts of the game and teaching players how to use their fileshare probably wasn't the highest priority on their list. Overall I feel that Halo 3 was a very good first stab into the world of Achievements. In particular, the Skull Achievements were very memorable experiences that I would have like to have seen built upon more in ODST and Reach. While some of the skulls were barely hidden off the beaten path, some like Tilt or Tough Luck involved an elaborate series of jumps that took you well outside of the normal playspace and into unknown and exciting territory. Especially if Destiny has a large emphasis on exploration, I would love to see entire sections of the map created just to hide a single achievement, filled with jumps and extra enemies to help guard the out of the way location. [url=http://www.bungie.net/en-US/View/community/Forum/Post?id=4022707&path=1][b]Thread continued on Post 2[/b][/url]

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  • erac2detsaw2

    erac2detsaw2

    1/8/2013 2:13:39 PM Permalink
    [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Hylebos Putting your own Achievement UI into the game would allow you to also track your progress towards specific achievements, I recall one of the Gears of War games showing me that I was like 95,000 kills away from unlocking one of their achievements or something like that while I played it. [/quote] That was the best idea ever for achievements IMO. I find it incredibly frustrating not know how many more wins in need in a playlist or kills with a weapon that I don't like. I would like to see a set of achievements more like Halo 3. Challenging in and of themselves but nothing that makes me grind it out trying to get it. With the exception of one or two lone wolf achievements I felt none of them were "impossible" to get. I would love to see that again.
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  • Sven

    Sven

    1/8/2013 1:32:55 PM Permalink
    I finally got around to reading this. You did not disappoint, but I have a few questions. [quote]>What are your thoughts on the 'arcade' styled firefight achievements in ODST, [i]ie. Firefight: [insert map name] - Score over [integer] points on [Map][/i], as opposed to the the similar campaign achievements you mention in the OP? >What do you think of the 'Naughty Naughty' and 'Good Samaritian' achievements in ODST?[/quote] [Edited on 01.08.2013 5:35 AM PST]
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  • Kirov 099

    Kirov 099

    1/6/2013 8:19:05 PM Permalink
    My only complaint about achievements are the circumstantial multiplayer ones. I'm still trying to get Steppin' Razor. Otherwise, I will say that Vidmaster achievements make for enjoyable experiences.
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  • The Third Turd

    The Third Turd

    1/6/2013 7:25:54 PM Permalink
    I was going to call out TL;DR, but the moment I started reading, I knew this was a really good thread. I am not such an achievement whore, but I have some friends that are. This one guy from my frienlist looks up EVERYTHING on the internet, and he had 3 playthroughs of Crysis 2 on easy, to do all of those achievements. But on topic, I think it is a great idea to put in some more difficult or teaching achievements. The fun thing of the Vidmasters was also that you really got something from it, rather than only Gamerscore. as Bungie has added many easter eggs in the game, I think it is a good idea toput in some easter-egg achievements. Just like in Halo 4 (YES I KNOW!) where you could find a RvB egg in every episode. All in all, I agree with you, but I'd like to know more about Destiny before I start worrying about the Gamerscore in the game.
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  • Antony X1000

    Antony X1000

    1/6/2013 7:09:07 PM Permalink
    I like achievements that award me for doing things I wouldn't usually do in the game, or for using new features. Although obviously these don't work too well in competitive multiplayer (like Mongoose Mowdown). Difficult achievements are cool too, so long as they aren't going to be impossible for some people to complete.
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  • THORSGOD

    THORSGOD

    1/6/2013 7:01:40 PM Permalink
    [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] AcedannyK 7 Bringing back Vidmaster-esque achievements would be freaking sweet.[/quote] this please
  • SPRTN One One 7

    SPRTN One One 7

    1/6/2013 6:22:38 PM Permalink
    Any time I get any achievment, my friend calls me an Achievment Whore. Especially when I get some of the Halo Achievments before him. Anyways, I always liked the hard and challenging achievments, but I never liked the ones that require no effort, those aren't fun to get.
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  • AthenaRising

    AthenaRising

    1/6/2013 6:07:54 PM Permalink
    What I really wonder is how they are going to be able to integrate the policies of Microsoft and Sony for their achievements. Destiny is a cross-platform (PC, Xbox, PS3, iirc) game, I hope this won't dull down the challenging aspect of those hard-to-get achievements.
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  • Hylebos

    Hylebos

    1/6/2013 5:59:24 PM Permalink
    [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] wcd45 I want some hard info on Destiny before I even think about GS.[/quote]Completely understandable, I simply wanted to predict the sorts of Achievements that would be in Destiny based on what worked and what didn't in the Halo trilogy. There will be plenty of time for things like "I think there should be an achievement for catching a Janglegoose armed only with a Hookrifle and a Mucus Grenade!" after major details have been announced. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Tom T Integer achievements do have their place. I would recommend they be used with the same logic as file share achievements, encouraging players to explore the breadth of game features, with a difference of also ensuring players spend a more significant period of time exploring those features. If you have something simple like "score a flag cap on a legendary map" it is likely to be unlocked after one or two dedicated searches. In this time the player might understand how the variant works, but understanding and appreciation are not one and the same. If instead you provide an integer (large enough to ensure long play time, short enough that players do not ignore it entirely), and perhaps also add a positive reinforcer ("win"), e,g, "win 20 Team Objective matches", hopefully more players would move from just playing Team Slayer all the time and have a more varied, enjoyable experience. I also support cooperative achievements, to reinforce the importance of things like team work and communication. The wheelman achievement in Halo 3 was a good example of this, as it was not something the average player is likely to get at random (unlike a lot of multiplayer achievements). It requires players remain in a vehicle, with a partner, for a long period, leading them to understand the real value of vehicle play -- something easily neglected, but popular enough to have spawned and sustained entire subcommunities.[/quote]I suppose I should clarify what I meant by the entire "Get on " comment. Specifically, I find those sorts of achievements unmemorable, so if they exist in a game, they had better exist to help instruct players about different aspects of the game. The thing with ODST is that you don't really learn much from being forced to get 10 rocket launcher kills on Kizingo Boulevard, or 10 Spartan Laser kills on ONI Alpha Site, or killing 10 enemies with the Flamethrower on Data Hive. Well, if memory serves, some of those achievements were frustrating because there wasn't enough ammo in that weapon for that level (that memory mostly exists for the Rocket Launcher), so I suppose you could say that the purpose of that Achievement is to teach beginners to conserve power weapon ammo till when it makes the biggest impact, but all the same, surely we could have had something a little more inspiring. I also suppose I was overly harsh on multiplayer achievements in general, and that things like scoring flags and getting wheelmen are definitely teaching experiences. I just have little faith in memorable and challenging ingame competitive multiplayer achievement arising that can't easily be cheesed for or are statistically improbable. Though something I would definitely like to see with Bungie's next game is an achievement at the very least encouraging players to try out that game's form of a ranking system (which I would very much like to see exist). There seemed like a distinct lack of encouragement to play the Arena in Reach, but that is a story for another thread. [quote]I also have a general idea that I might as well share, vaguely inspired by the way challenges were handled in Halo Reach. I am referring to the feature where you could jump to the appropriate campaign level, with all the required skulls activated, just by opening the challenges menu and selecting the relevant challenge. Why not flag different modes/playlists with "available achievements", detailing what is available, how it is unlocked, and the gamerscore rewarded. Say you hover over Team Objective, see *3 achievements available* and are given intel upon hitting x. Or if you back out and hover over multiplayer it could provide a longer list (still condensed, without all the campaign clutter) which could provide players with an automatic jump to playlist feature, not dissimilar to that used with Reach's challenges. The logic behind this stems from my own frustration of having to navigate a lengthy list of 50 achievements for every game that I own. With Halo I could manage as the majority of achievements were instantly familiar, but I don't think achievements are particularly approachable for the average gamer. I also doubt the need to constantly refresh themselves on what they need do, by scrolling through an extensive list, is particularly enjoyable. I think breaking down achievements would be ideal and am honestly surprised no developer has done it already (to my knowledge, anyway). Doing so also comes with the additional advantage of being able to increase the level of intel available for players. Developers need not worry so much about the constraints of the achievement UI, or brevity in general, as players would be bombarded by less information at any one time. An example of this additional information might be "for this achievement you will need to team up with 3 friends, if you are running short why not enlist help from bungie.net's Classifieds/Network forum [url]http://www.bungie.net/teamup[/url]?)[/quote]This is another decent idea. Putting your own Achievement UI into the game would allow you to also track your progress towards specific achievements, I recall one of the Gears of War games showing me that I was like 95,000 kills away from unlocking one of their achievements or something like that while I played it. There could also be little pop-ups like "If you play the Campaign with these settings, you can't earn the following achievements. Is that okay with you?" to help make achievements more accessible to newer players. Lots of good stuff that could be applied. It will also be interesting to see how the default achievement UI improves with the next Xbox. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Bricypoo There should also be one for doing incredibly stupid things that make all of your teammates angry. So people like me have a reason to keep playing. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Tom T[/quote][/quote]Yes, we should definitely add a "Get Betrayal Booted in 10 different games" achievement. >_> <_< [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Tom T [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Bricypoo There should also be one for doing incredibly stupid things that make all of your teammates angry. So people like me have a reason to keep playing. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Tom T[/quote][/quote]Your desire to be annoying gave me an idea; you have a gift, thank you. I wonder if it would be possible to add "play a game where all players are in game chat and have an XBL headset plugged in". Annoying perhaps, but it might encourage people to communicate again, and help combat the radio silence that ruins Xbox Live for the newcomer. Not that I actually know what the situation is like, having been mute banned from Reach for over a year. Thanks, Bungie! >_>[/quote]I imagine that there's some way for the game to test if all players in the lobby have headsets, yeah, I definitely like the sound of that achievement. An achievement that goes along the lines of the Linktacular medal from Halo 3 would also be good for getting people on the website. On the topic of the Mute Ban, that's definitely going to be another wall for another day, I promise :) [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] ecartman1214 But it was Bungies [i][u]SECOND[/i][/u] time with achievements (Halo 2 PC had achievements y'all)[/quote]I know that Bungie worked in part to make Halo 2 PC a reality, but I doubt that they helped to work on something as trivial as achievements. Helping to make the port from the Xbox to the PC is one thing, because the folks at Bungie know how their systems work and could spot potential problems with the porting process. Giving the porting team help with designing achievements is another. [url=http://www.xbox360achievements.org/game/halo-2-pc/achievements/]I do like some of these Achievements though.[/url] Achievements like Ninja and Flaming Ninja definitely haven't been explored in Bungie's games before, and achievements like Violent Cartographer and Rainman seem like great ways to get players to try every type of food on their plate. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] burritosenior You make long threads just for the sake of making threads long at this point bro. It's a no-go. >.< [/quote]Please. As usual, I refuse to sacrifice the depth and the meaning of my thoughts because some people don't like to invest five or ten minutes of their time into reading them. In a verbal conversation with another colleague who was passionate about videogame design, I could easily use ten times the amount of words I used in this thread. These threads aren't long because I want them to be long, these threads are long because they need to be long in order to explain the flow of my thoughts and reasoning. Too Long; Didn't Read: Hylebos doesn't do what Hylebos does for Hylebos. Hylebos does what Hylebos does because Hylebos is Hylebos!
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  • burritosenior

    burritosenior

    1/6/2013 4:06:57 AM Permalink
    You make long threads just for the sake of making threads long at this point bro. It's a no-go. >.< Long as they don't follow 343's map specific BS or focus on multiplayer ('challenge' be damned because it isn't a 'challenge' to get something based on luck... it's just annoying.). And that's all I have to say about that. [Edited on 01.05.2013 8:07 PM PST]
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  • MiloOmega

    MiloOmega

    1/6/2013 3:57:49 AM Permalink
    I think that if different difficulties are implemented, completing the campaign on the highest difficulty should unlock an achievement called "See you starside"
  • Gnome Scat
  • ecartman1214

    ecartman1214

    1/6/2013 3:37:21 AM Permalink
    I have to say the Halo 3 lone wolves achievements were murder. 2 for 1 was basically luck. Overkill, Killing Frenzy, the Sword Triple Kill, Mongoose Mowdown, all should have been on any ranked gametype. But it was Bungies [i][u]SECOND[/i][/u] time with achievements (Halo 2 PC had achievements y'all) So what can you expect? I do appreciate the smaller achievements and look forward to them being in the game. But really the ones that burn me up the most are just the luck achievements, map specific achievements like "on map X get Y kills with the Z gun".
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  • Gnome Scat

    Gnome Scat

    1/6/2013 3:27:47 AM Permalink
    [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] AcedannyK 7 Bringing back Vidmaster-esque achievements would be freaking sweet.[/quote]
  • AcedannyK

    AcedannyK

    1/6/2013 2:54:59 AM Permalink
    [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Tom T "play a game where all players are in game chat and have an XBL headset plugged in"[/quote]Hell yes, that is a good idea. Though I'd crank the integer up from 1 to 7. Yeah... seven.
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  • Bricypoo

    Bricypoo

    1/6/2013 2:52:54 AM Permalink
    I don't blame them, you are a real jerk. Jerks be jerking. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Tom T [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Bricypoo There should also be one for doing incredibly stupid things that make all of your teammates angry. So people like me have a reason to keep playing. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Tom T[/quote][/quote]Your desire to be annoying gave me an idea; you have a gift, thank you. I wonder if it would be possible to add "play a game where all players are in game chat and have an XBL headset plugged in". Annoying perhaps, but it might encourage people to communicate again, and help combat the radio silence that ruins Xbox Live for the newcomer. Not that I actually know, having been mute banned from Reach for over a year. Thanks, Bungie! >_>[/quote] [Edited on 01.05.2013 6:53 PM PST]
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  • Tom T

    Tom T

    1/6/2013 2:48:16 AM Permalink
    [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Bricypoo There should also be one for doing incredibly stupid things that make all of your teammates angry. So people like me have a reason to keep playing. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Tom T[/quote][/quote]Your desire to be annoying gave me an idea; you have a gift, thank you. I wonder if it would be possible to add "play a game where all players are in game chat and have an XBL headset plugged in". Annoying perhaps, but it might encourage people to communicate again, and help combat the radio silence that ruins Xbox Live for the newcomer. Not that I actually know what the situation is like, having been mute banned from Reach for over a year. Thanks, Bungie! >_> [Edited on 01.05.2013 7:18 PM PST]
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  • Bricypoo

    Bricypoo

    1/6/2013 2:41:39 AM Permalink
    There should also be one for doing incredibly stupid things that make all of your teammates angry. So people like me have a reason to keep playing. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Tom T[/quote]
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  • Tom T

    Tom T

    1/6/2013 2:38:02 AM Permalink
    Integer achievements do have their place. I would recommend they be used with the same logic as file share achievements, encouraging players to explore the breadth of game features, with a difference of also ensuring players spend a more significant period of time exploring those features. If you have something simple like "score a flag cap on a legendary map" it is likely to be unlocked after one or two dedicated searches. In this time the player might understand how the variant works, but understanding and appreciation are not one and the same. If instead you provide an integer (large enough to ensure long play time, short enough that players do not ignore it entirely), and perhaps also add a positive reinforcer ("win"), e,g, "win 20 Team Objective matches", hopefully more players would move from just playing Team Slayer all the time and have a more varied, enjoyable experience. I also support cooperative achievements, to reinforce the importance of things like team work and communication. The wheelman achievement in Halo 3 was a good example of this, as it was not something the average player is likely to get at random (unlike a lot of multiplayer achievements). It requires players remain in a vehicle, with a partner, for a long period, leading them to understand the real value of vehicle play -- something easily neglected, but popular enough to have spawned and sustained entire subcommunities. I also have a general idea that I might as well share, vaguely inspired by the way challenges were handled in Halo Reach. I am referring to the feature where you could jump to the appropriate campaign level, with all the required skulls activated, just by opening the challenges menu and selecting the relevant challenge. Why not flag different modes/playlists with "available achievements", detailing what is available, how it is unlocked, and the gamerscore rewarded. Say you hover over Team Objective, see *3 achievements available* and are given intel upon hitting x. Or if you back out and hover over multiplayer it could provide a longer list (still condensed, without all the campaign clutter) which could provide players with an automatic jump to playlist feature, not dissimilar to that used with Reach's challenges. The logic behind this stems from my own frustration of having to navigate a lengthy list of 50 achievements for every game that I own. With Halo I could manage as the majority of achievements were instantly familiar, but I don't think achievements are particularly approachable for the average gamer. I also doubt the need to constantly refresh themselves on what they need do, by scrolling through an extensive list, is particularly enjoyable. I think breaking down achievements would be ideal and am honestly surprised no developer has done it already (to my knowledge, anyway). Doing so also comes with the additional advantage of being able to increase the level of intel available for players. Developers need not worry so much about the constraints of the achievement UI, or brevity in general, as players would be bombarded by less information at any one time. An example of this additional information might be "for this achievement you will need to team up with 3 friends, if you are running short why not enlist help from bungie.net's Classifieds/Network forum [url]http://www.bungie.net/teamup[/url]?) [Edited on 01.05.2013 7:18 PM PST]
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  • DarkONI
  • wcd45
  • Mass Craziness

    Mass Craziness

    1/6/2013 2:25:24 AM Permalink
    Challenging me with over-the-top difficult and zany achievements would make the next game great. Personally, I find beating any game on its highest difficulty grants me a great reward to myself. The achievement is just a bonus. [Edited on 01.05.2013 6:28 PM PST]
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  • AcedannyK
  • DE4THINC4RN4TE

    DE4THINC4RN4TE

    1/6/2013 1:48:16 AM Permalink
    Ah achievements. My best memory from going after those was finishing getting my last Achievement in Reach. Damn that DLC had some tough achievements. Also, Happy 5th! [Edited on 01.05.2013 5:49 PM PST]
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  • Bricypoo

    Bricypoo

    1/6/2013 1:44:46 AM Permalink
    It's so big and long EDIT: Also if you want a game with Challenging Achievments, download Perfect Dark off the XBLA. I still don't have them all. [Edited on 01.05.2013 5:49 PM PST]
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