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TallestSpark

TallestSpark

12/28/2012 4:24:32 AM
The more I think about it the more I start to tell myself that the UNSC, and not the Covenant, won the war in space in the end. Yes I know it took three or four UNSC ships to destroy one Covenant ship, but overall I still think the UNSC had many major wins. The Unyielding Elephant, destruction of High Charity, the gas planet Admiral Cole nuked to cook the Covenant fleet in orbit, etc.... I really can't remember a time when the UNSC lost at least 150 ships or more in a single battle.... So overall, even though the Covenant won almost every engagement, when you add in Unyielding Elephant(500+ ships), High Charity (1000+ ships) and the fleet destroyed near the gas planet (300 ships) it looks like the covies lost a lot more in space than Humanity did. Discuss.

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    Trollheim

    Trollheim

    1/8/2013 12:57:58 PM Permalink
    When the UNSC won battles, they forestalled the Covenant advance. When the Covenant won battles, entire colonies were razed. It seems pretty clear to me who was winning the war in space.
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    Nocbl2

    Nocbl2

    1/8/2013 6:48:51 AM Permalink
    DAMN YOU FOR THAT TV TROPES LINK! OT: I think the Covenant were a bit played up with the overall feeling of hopelessness. They make it seem like the war was swift and bloody, when really it was a lot of waiting for the Covies to find another planet to 'splode. The Covenant had the technological advantage, certainly. The only reason the humans had a chance was because of the NOVA bomb. It basically took out half the Elites, so they were forced to shack up with humanity if they wanted to defeat the Prophets and Brutes. This joining of forces helped deal with Truth at Earth, and later the Battle at the Ark. Luckily, the majority of the Loyalists were at the Ark, where the now decimated allies were headed, but still helping to keep the heat off of Earth. They managed to have a Mock Guffin scenario where they blew up the entrenched Loyalists who were trying to activate the Ark. Overall, humanity won, but by the tiniest sliver of luck. If the NOVA hadn't been a thing, then the Elites would have had a massive fleet and plenty of soldiers to eliminate the Prophets and the humans. Perhaps they might fall in the end to the Loyalists, but that never occurred so we will never know.
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    Manny

    Manny

    1/8/2013 5:07:26 AM Permalink
    [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Murcielago00 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Spartan1995324 So what you're saying is... Marines could totally kick a Brute's ass?[/quote] One on one, obviously not. But ground engagements didn't work on a 1:1 ratio of troops. In canon, when it comes to ground fighting versus space fighting the UNSC tends to have the upper hand.[/quote]How? The UNSC didn't seem to be doing all that great. I never got the impression we were better at ground engagements. I got the impression we were tough to beat, but still lost the ground engagements as well.
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    Murcielago

    Murcielago

    1/8/2013 4:36:30 AM Permalink
    [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Spartan1995324 So what you're saying is... Marines could totally kick a Brute's ass?[/quote] One on one, obviously not. But ground engagements didn't work on a 1:1 ratio of troops. In canon, when it comes to ground fighting versus space fighting the UNSC tends to have the upper hand.
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    Manny

    Manny

    1/8/2013 4:20:49 AM Permalink
    [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] And Im Here Too [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] grey101 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] prometheus25 The only real advantages I see of plasma over projectiles are weapon weight and reloading. [/quote] Remember us trying to figure how how they recharged their guns in halo 2? It sucks that the covenant members have to remember how much ammo they have since they can't just unload and count. If a gun runs out of bullets on the field you ask or scavage for more. If your plasma weapon runs out of charge (it seems) that you just drop it and try finding a new one hoping it isn't used up. Very dangerous and inefficient.[/quote] The UNSC were all-around [i]better[/i] in ground conflicts. In space...[url=http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CurbStompBattle]not so much[/url], obviously.[/quote]So what you're saying is... Marines could totally kick a Brute's ass?
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    Lord Keksworth

    Lord Keksworth

    1/8/2013 3:28:52 AM Permalink
    [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] grey101 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] prometheus25 The only real advantages I see of plasma over projectiles are weapon weight and reloading. [/quote] Remember us trying to figure how how they recharged their guns in halo 2? It sucks that the covenant members have to remember how much ammo they have since they can't just unload and count. If a gun runs out of bullets on the field you ask or scavage for more. If your plasma weapon runs out of charge (it seems) that you just drop it and try finding a new one hoping it isn't used up. Very dangerous and inefficient.[/quote] The UNSC were all-around [i]better[/i] in ground conflicts. In space...[url=http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CurbStompBattle]not so much[/url], obviously.
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    Manny

    Manny

    1/7/2013 11:41:07 PM Permalink
    ^Loyalist and Separatist factions would remain largely the same if the Prophets returned. And Thursday doesn't give an impression of Elites living in "mud huts". They are disorganized and in chaos, that's all. Elites like Jul are well aware that Elites were able to support themselves and that's what Jul wants for Elites anyways, aside from wiping out Humanity.
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    Cobra Commander

    Cobra Commander

    1/7/2013 5:49:59 PM Permalink
    Mentioning the Arbiter would he not be a strong leader for his faction ? I think there has been some sort of oversight even if the Elites have grown reliant on Prophets for wepons armor or the like. Would not his goal to be uncover secrets of the past. His people probably hid them. It would be a great story. Still yes and no about Elites being demoralized. I just feel with the portrayal they are some how living in mud huts and have no direction ? Thursday War seems to give this impression. Unless the Sangheili wish to slink back into no tech. Two paths lay open. First they change ways then begin to understand the tech they use by looking to the Elites from the past. Second they acquire tech from Prophets to keep ships in operation and such by capturing factories ect. Third option is just to live on there planet with no tech and let it all go. Now i doubt a race of warriors would choose option three knowing what would happen should any of Truths Zealots find a ring. Still 343i does not explain nor has any writer explained or i have herd about why this is ?. Arbiter has a big faction. Yet they need rest but my question is what is going on ? Why are they not pursuing means to keep wepons or fleet in working condition ? Sit and wait, Yet it seemed at the End of H3 he might go home then take the fight to some Brutes or even Secure the Halo Rings. I am baffled but i hope some how one or two things happen. Arbiter kicks butt gets tech to repair his fleet knowing it is vital. Or They just cast off Covy Tech to make there own and Learn what is to farm or have an economy. Also what happened to the other races ? Are they stranded on Planets ? Other factions exist who oppose Arbiter, Who are they ? End of the War it was unclear what direction the Covys would take as the leaders betrayed Elites and the other races supported the Prophets so who's supporting who ?
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    Manny

    Manny

    1/7/2013 3:28:36 AM Permalink
    I'm aware of everything you said. I've read those books and I know the basics behind the forming of Covenant. The Reformists were the ones who wanted to explore Forerunner tech, and the Covenant Prophets became their descendants. The Reformists and Sangheili warred due to ideological differences, as you said. The Reformists wanted to explore the tech, the Elites thoughts it was heresy. It was the Covenant as a WHOLE who only mimicked Forerunner tech. No one in the Covenant truly understood their own tech, derived from Forerunner tech. The Prophets perhaps were the only ones who truly knew the inner workings of their tech. Which leads to my question. If the Elites were totally against using Forerunner tech then how on Earth (or Sangheilos in this case, lol) did the Sangheili achieve space flight? They reused to touch Forerunner tech, so they couldn't have used that to achieve space flight. They had to have developed it on their own.
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    JobeTheConqueror

    JobeTheConqueror

    1/7/2013 1:35:05 AM Permalink
    [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Spartan1995324 ^The Elites WERE smart. The achieved space flight by themselves. But that knowledge was lost to the majority of the population over hundreds, perhaps thousands, of generations. The Elites who were in contact with the most advanced technology were the males, and all they wanted to do was fight. The Prophets took care of all the science research. The majority of Elites didn't bother to actually learn how their tech worked, much like how the majority of humans today have no idea how their smart phones actually work. In essence the Elites became users, not creators. So after all that time of being a user, and then suddenly having a limited supply of tech, things will be tough to run. They don't really know how to make more ships, weapons, etc so they are focused on keeping what they have in tip top condition until they actually know how to build what they need. There may be some Elites who know a bit, but I'd assume it isn't enough.[/quote] Karen Traviss has a couple somewhat new books that would interest you, they talk at great length about the Sanghelli civilization after the war. The Elites revered the Forerunner artifacts as sacred relics of the gods. To them it was considered sacrilege to take apart or mutilate any Forerunner artifact, heck some even thought they shouldn't even be touched, only worshiped! They advanced in technology at a slower rate, only attempting to mimic, study, and occasionally activate Forerunner tech. In this way they were different than the Prophets, who made all of their technological advancements by studying, using and taking apart artifacts, reverse-engineering any tech they managed to understand to some extent. This put them at a significant technological advantage over the Elites. This was actually the reason for the original war between the Sanghelli and San 'Shyuum. Once the two races ran into each other while colonizing space, they made contact and brokered an alliance to help one another, and shared in their worship of the Forerunners, discussing and comparing their religions and philosophy. The Prophets welcomed having strong, agile warriors at their sides, and the Elites marveled at and shared in their great technology. But once the Elite's discovered that the Prophets were defiling sacred artifacts by damaging, using, and dismantling them for study, they grew furious. The Elites believed the sacred artifacts should be revered and protected, the Prophets believed they should be studied and used. This lead to a great war that eventually came to a standstill after great losses on both sides. The Elites were powerful, dexterous warriors, able to overtake the Prophets on the ground and any single combat with ease. The Prophets on the other hand had more advanced ships and weaponry, able to strike harder and on a wider scale as well as dominating ship to ship combat. But over time, a stalemate was drawn and the idea for peace was attempted. This ushered in the dawn of the Covenant. Sanghelli and San 'Shyuum leaders decided to put aside their differences and band together under a common goal of learning about their gods, discovering more of their artifacts, and finding out how they went from this existence, as well as how to ascend behind them. Thus the Great Journey started, with the Elites as the strong arm, protecting the Prophets as they journeyed the galaxy in search of the Forerunner. After the events of Halo 3 and Onyx, the Elites were scattered, broken, as we all know. They lack leadership and they are a culture that knows nothing but war, every male a fighter and every female a breeder. Within the Covenant they had no need to study technology, that was the role of the Prophets. Or to grow food or maintain themselves or their tech, that was the role of the lesser races. With this structure gone, they know not how to move forward, and are tasked with relearning how to be independent and grow as they once did thousands of years ago. So no, Elites did not in fact achieve space flight unaided, they had Forerunner tech to mimic. But neither did Humans, to be fair, as it is suggested that the Librarian's genesong guided humanity along a certain path, seeding us with ideas that sprouted over time, both cultural and technological, so that they would be ready to assume the Mantle when the time was right.
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    Manny

    Manny

    1/7/2013 12:35:15 AM Permalink
    ^The Elites WERE smart. The achieved space flight by themselves. But that knowledge was lost to the majority of the population over hundreds, perhaps thousands, of generations. The Elites who were in contact with the most advanced technology were the males, and all they wanted to do was fight. The Prophets took care of all the science research. The majority of Elites didn't bother to actually learn how their tech worked, much like how the majority of humans today have no idea how their smart phones actually work. In essence the Elites became users, not creators. So after all that time of being a user, and then suddenly having a limited supply of tech, things will be tough to run. They don't really know how to make more ships, weapons, etc so they are focused on keeping what they have in tip top condition until they actually know how to build what they need. There may be some Elites who know a bit, but I'd assume it isn't enough.
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    Cobra Commander

    Cobra Commander

    1/6/2013 1:49:13 PM Permalink
    I Think people miss the fact there are writing flaw or some one overwriting here that is inconsistent. Elites were at war with the Prophets before and would have some sort of tech even after so long being the prophets tools. Yet in HALO Wars they had science lances study human tech compared to there's. Not saying the Covys knew every thing but there had to be some basic understanding for a race who worked so long with the Prophets despite not wanting to disturb forerunner tech. To narrow down Elites in such a way as to say they are too afraid or did not want to is just a writing oversight as the Covys before the split did have science lances. They could have gleamed some tech. I do not doubt the real reason for Prophets freaking out was due to them losing control of forerunner tech. Thus losing Political Power. Brutes being new were given wepons and as were many of the other races who did not want to or did not care to understand the wepons given yet i suspect Jackals were much smarter than most would suspect. Elites have been too long with the tech and would not entirely be reliant on Engineers to fix everything. Factions fighting for supplies and parts even hidden factories that are hidden will happen but what of the Prophets themselves ? Arbiter will need to secure what he has and get parts but the issue of pursuing Prophets factories or even understanding the tech would be a on going goal that i think has been missed. Besides there are too many rings and such just for humanity to explore. Over all if you look back i think you can tell that 343i ignored some of what was done to do what they wanted as far as writing. So a race that has Science Lances even directed by Prophets are barely able to keep things going ?. I doubt it. Even if it were directed at understanding another races wepons or tech you would need to understand your tech despite a taboo. Elites had allot too ingrained to just one day wake up and not understand it at some point. They might not be able to make more due to lack of tools or have tech to do so but that is moot. Humanity was able to secure there logistics clandestine in some cases to keep things going or else they too would have lost right off. If humans would have got crafty and they use old hulls for food production. In some cases planets like Arcadia before it was hit a second time it produced much needed food for UNSC. People do not realize that with out supplies or any such you will loose this is why when the Flood took High Charity it cut off a Major supply venue for Covy forces. Not to mention being able to use the Chaos of the Great Journey to crash onto it. Flood do not need supplies just hosts so such things as food or water mean little. Human and Covy forces need such things not to mention parts to repair vehicles and such. Example to keep a force of 1000 front line men supplied you will need 1500-2000 men mechanics, medics, cooks, supply clerks, Administrative personal, intelligence, communication techs ect. During war time supplies can get strained. Medical supplies and Parts. Part of the reason why UNSC was losing was due to colonies being put to the torch with military installations or factories that could produce much needed supplies or wepons. Each world lost diminished UNSC in some way not only with personal but with supplies. Fall of Reach took out allot of the UNSC fighting strength not to mention is war time production and Shipyards with it to hurt operations. Logistics were haphazard at best and at times it did have a flow but when you are on the defensive most of the time it was strained. Despite all this UNSC was able to pull it together going to ground or when needed facing Covy juggernaut. So humans came up with a Hide N Seek strategy while the Covys flew around burning human colonies they found to find out if humans were hiding forerunner tech at the behest of the Prophets.
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    Wolf

    Wolf

    1/4/2013 6:36:06 PM Permalink
    Well thats because the humans didnt have that many ships to begin with, the only time they had that many ships was at reach and that fleet was demolished. The humans never did well in space unless they got lucky exluding the keyes move that was brilliant.
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    Splat Lazer

    Splat Lazer

    1/4/2013 9:53:03 AM Permalink
    Yeah, I'm surprised the UNSC didn't invent a giant plasma pistol, mounted it on a cruiser, spam overcharged projectiles at the Covenant ships then bombard them with Shiva nukes. That would be a glorious sight to see. But in all seriousness, I think the UNSC won the war on space. Sure they lost almost all of their ships, but they did a number on the Covenant before they got to that point of the war. Only my opinion though. [Edited on 01.04.2013 1:55 AM PST]
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    Grey101

    Grey101

    1/4/2013 5:49:44 AM Permalink
    [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] otterboyz [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] grey101 and wasn't that ship disabled after the MAC blew a whole in it? You act like Mac weaponry didn't improve throughout the war not to mention the fall of reach comic retconned the ship to being a CCS. Which isn't new seeing how small the UNSC ships are in general, i don't know where you can hit a UNSC ship without causes major damage. As if AP rounds don't relay on blunt force to cause trauma.[/quote] The ship was still able to travel much faster than the Commonwealth and still was able to reactivate its shields and use all it's weaponry. And the whole point of an AP round is to make sue it doesn't fracture into fragments so it can actually pierce through objects. and bullets should never be designed use blunt force to cause trauma.[/quote] And weren't they just using AP rounds because of the shields? The main word that keeps popping up is shields.everything is because the covenant had shields.
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    Grey101

    Grey101

    1/4/2013 5:48:17 AM Permalink
    [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] ferrrari but plasma easily melts though it. Saying otherwise would just be lying on your part mate.[/quote] Source that ever happening, John gets hit by 12 hunters in uprising and his armor was still fine. I don't recall a plasma shot completely melting off any armor plating on Mjolnir.If that were true then the spartans would have needed the armor to constantly be replaced.
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    Ferrari

    Ferrari

    1/3/2013 11:44:54 PM Permalink
    [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] grey101 A wave of plasma torpedos can take out a ship A volley of archer missiles can take out a ship. [b]there isn't a difference[/b]. [/quote] It takes far less Plasma torpedos to take out a ship then it does archer missiles. And if that ship has shields then you better hope that your ships has spares. There is a reason why plasma is so much better, heck Mjolnir shrugs off bullets like their nothing, but plasma easily melts though it. Saying otherwise would just be lying on your part mate.
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    Gottalovec4

    Gottalovec4

    1/3/2013 11:41:54 PM Permalink
    I feel as though the only problem the UNSC had in space was inability to adapt their arsenal towards fighting a war against an equal or superior power. I find this problem exists with most of the UNSC's arsenal. They were totally prepared to fight Innsurrectionists, but no Covenant. Their weapon designs, like the MA5 chambered in 7.62, the Scorpion's strength against IEDs, but not weapon fire, and the heavy Titanium A on all their ships really show it. Fact is, some major improvements could have been made as soon as the Covenant were first fought that would have given the UNSC equal footing in space. 1. Remove the majority of Titanium A armor from all Frigate and Destroyer vessels. The armor did nothing anyway, and the tons of armor that was there simply made the ships slower, and used more reactor energy to move via thrusters. Removal of the armor would have allowed for more energy to go to the MAC guns. 2.Creation of smaller, more heavily armed ships. The UNSC desperately needed a Light Cruiser class, between Midlothian class destroyers and Halcyon cruisers. Something with a low profile, but two or more MAC guns capable of escorting fleets and attacking lower tonnage Covenant ships. Additionally they would have benifitted greatly by redesigning their ship layouts to be more like bigger versions of Stalwart Frigates: narrow and long, with a lower level flight deck. Designs like the Marathon were far too bulky, and one plasma torpedo amidships would blow open half the decks. 3. Ceased production of Archers, and other missile systems. Archers were crap against Covenant ships. They could be spoofed by EMPs, and even when their shields were down it still took 3 dozen of them to do any appreciable damage to their hull. The UNSC should have scrapped their design entirely and tried to develop a cool firing "torpedo" that would only adjust trajetory in microbursts rather than the solid hot burning Archers. Alternatively, they could have gone for the type of gun the Spirit of Fire used. Massive deck guns loaded with high explosives or even nuclear tipped warheads would have eaten Covenant ships.
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    Otterboyz

    Otterboyz

    1/3/2013 10:36:52 PM Permalink
    [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] grey101 and wasn't that ship disabled after the MAC blew a whole in it? You act like Mac weaponry didn't improve throughout the war not to mention the fall of reach comic retconned the ship to being a CCS. Which isn't new seeing how small the UNSC ships are in general, i don't know where you can hit a UNSC ship without causes major damage. As if AP rounds don't relay on blunt force to cause trauma.[/quote] The ship was still able to travel much faster than the Commonwealth and still was able to reactivate its shields and use all it's weaponry. And the whole point of an AP round is to make sue it doesn't fracture into fragments so it can actually pierce through objects. and bullets should never be designed use blunt force to cause trauma.
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    Manny

    Manny

    1/3/2013 7:25:46 PM Permalink
    [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] grey101 -_- The UNSC has cloning tech in which they can make another arm (TFoR) and they have prosthetic arms (Reach).[/quote]Ok so after the battle a ballistic or plasma wound can be healed/replaced. But what about right then and there? If your right arm was injured, you can still somewhat use it if you have to. If your right arm is gone... Well you better hope you're a good shot with your left hand a pistol.
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    Prometheus25

    Prometheus25

    1/3/2013 7:17:33 PM Permalink
    [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] grey101 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] prometheus25 The only real advantages I see of plasma over projectiles are weapon weight and reloading. [/quote] [b]Remember us trying to figure how how they recharged their guns in halo 2?[/b] It sucks that the covenant members have to remember how much ammo they have since they can't just unload and count. If a gun runs out of bullets on the field you ask or scavage for more. If your plasma weapon runs out of charge (it seems) that you just drop it and try finding a new one hoping it isn't used up. Very dangerous and inefficient.[/quote] Yeah, a gun you have to drop and find a new one of is poor. But it was never stated that they [i]couldn't[/i] be reloaded, just that we didn't know how to. I am making the assumption that the Covenant knew how to.
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    Grey101

    Grey101

    1/3/2013 7:08:07 PM Permalink
    [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] prometheus25 The only real advantages I see of plasma over projectiles are weapon weight and reloading. [/quote] Remember us trying to figure how how they recharged their guns in halo 2? It sucks that the covenant members have to remember how much ammo they have since they can't just unload and count. If a gun runs out of bullets on the field you ask or scavage for more. If your plasma weapon runs out of charge (it seems) that you just drop it and try finding a new one hoping it isn't used up. Very dangerous and inefficient.
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    Prometheus25

    Prometheus25

    1/3/2013 6:57:34 PM Permalink
    The only real advantages I see of plasma over projectiles are weapon weight and reloading. I suppose plasma bolts are a bit larger and would thus allow for a better chance of hitting opponents, which may be important when you have cannon fodder troops that aren't too bright (grunts).
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    Grey101

    Grey101

    1/3/2013 6:11:01 PM Permalink
    -_- The UNSC has cloning tech in which they can make another arm (TFoR) and they have prosthetic arms (Reach).
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    Manny

    Manny

    1/3/2013 5:54:55 PM Permalink
    [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] grey101 3. Sit down and publicly explain [b]why[/b] plasma is inherently better than ballistics. It doesn't have anything to do with halo and this forum had this talk about 3 years ago. First off you can see plasma traveling through air/space which gets you the heads up to try getting out of the way. You can't see a bullet flying through the air and in space you would only see missiles and a laser depending. If i shoot you in the arm with a plasma rifle the arm will be gone, catheterized, and you wouldn't feel any pain because the limb was pretty much burned off. Now shoot another person in the arm with a rifle and it gets messy. You have to worry about if the bullet(s) hit a vein or passed cleanly. It honestly goes from there but generally if you get shot in the arm the only thing keeping you going on is adrenaline If we are talking about a warzone. Even then that might not be enough for you to ignore the damage to your arm and keep fighting. Sure you can switch arms but if you can't actually make that work then you will have to be patched up by a medical right there or taken off the filed. THEN, if you want to be a badass and just completely ignore the wound. You have to worry about the bullet fragmenting in you arm or subserviently wherever it landed, which if [b]not[/n] a good thing. You're a kid do you like iron man? Do you know [b]why[/b] he has the arc reactor in his chest? To keep the shrapnel from an explosion (which wasn't caused by plasma) away from his heart.[/quote]One question... Wouldn't the plasma do a better job of making the arm useless? Isn't the point of firing a weapon at someone, to make them useless (e.g. dead) or wherever you hit useless? With ballistics there is the chance of that arm recovering. With plasma... It's gone for good.
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