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Typhoon

Typhoon

12/26/2012 1:57:22 AM
One thing I've never really understood in Halo lore, despite clocking hundreds of hours into games, books and expanded lore; why did the Great Schism occur? I know that it's because the Elites - speficially, Councilors - were being murdered by the Brutes in the uprising of power. But why would the Prophet of Truth want the Elites to be overthrown out of power? I've never understood this. Surely he must have realised that even trying to place the Brutes above them in the heirarchy would be enough to cause a rebellion at a crucial point in the Human-Covenant war.... Why were the Brutes chosen to replace the Elites? It certainly wasn't because the Elites were no longer capable of defending the Prophets; it's obvious to anyone including Truth that the Brutes aren't really any more capable at defending a prophet than Elite Honour Guards are. Can anyone clarify? Seems like a bizarre, unexplained move to me.

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  • Grey101
  • Ghost 4119

    Ghost 4119

    1/1/2013 10:17:44 PM Permalink
    Just to put some things into perspective here. While reading one the many Halo books. I came across the section where The Chief first came face to face with 'the brutes'. Describing their 'brute shots' as huge grenade launchers. They were also described as some sort of 'holy guard'. Since they were (if I recall correctly, fighting in a temple which the brutes were in-fact guarding). So the brutes were't really THAT low down in the covenant ranks. They just weren't the smartest or quickest compared to the elites. Also, I read something about the Arbiter finding out about the lies which were being told to his people. Which more likely then not had something to do with the great schism. And the excuse that the elites just 'weren't good enough' doesn't really make too much sense to me. Obviously they knew even honor guards aren't effective a LONG time ago. (going by the battle on top of the bridge at the Apex site in Halo: Wars). Where 12 honor guards couldn't scratch the breastplate of even one of the three Spartans. even in close quarter combat. (also the fact that the arbiter was killed by a regular human soldier.)
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  • Grey101

    Grey101

    1/1/2013 9:10:17 PM Permalink
    [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] OrderedComa And any jabs made at 343idiocy are pretty much well deserved these days...they've slipped from where they were before, next to nothing they make now holds any similarities with Halo bar names of characters, places, things, and races....they've departed from what Halo actually is and decided to ignore everything that doesn't fit their vision and make the series into something it's not and everything that came before them does not support. At best, things from them are inaccurate, at worst, they're willfully ignoring whatever came before and changing it to fit their own narrow, simplistic views on what Halo should be.[/quote] Oh hush up. I seriously hate how you romanticize bungie in which you only do so because you started with halo 3. I called you out on this in the elite thread on waypoint about you doing that. You act like bungie's halo was [b]always[/b] consistent and they never made [b]any[/b] mistakes. Roberto, how many years have we been mindfu**ed over how many colones the Humans have? Do we even have a number [b]now?[/b]. Mind explaining to all of us what halo is coma? Because bungie honestly didn't start cranking out lore until halo 2 because they weren't expecting halo one to go anywhere. They seriously made the story as they went and by they i mean Jason Jones was the [b]true[/b] halo story head. Funny thing is he left right after halo 2 which is why halo 3 was so crappy. What are they making the series into coma? A more realistic one? A series where humans don't always come out on top,where hero's don't always have a walk in the park? [quote] At best, things from them are inaccurate, at worst,[/quote] Any time you start doing this crap i am going to ask you for a list showing exactly what you are talking about and it better not all be from Kilo 5 which everybody is pretty much ignoring. You don't think we ignored things from bungie coma? Try looking at how crappy the unsc weaponry is with the excuse being "humans were in peace for 300 years". Everybody remember when they pretty much said the covenant use space magic after we called them out plasma getting past the magnetosphere? You say "inaccurate" which is funny because it should have taken the PoA longer than what, two weeks to get to installation 04? They never fixed or explained that. Nor did they ever explain the ending of halo 2 in transition with the beginning of halo 3. which lead us to make up our own conclusions as to what happened. [b]isn't that you do with 343? [/b] [quote] changing it to fit their own narrow, simplistic views on what Halo should be.[/quote] Aren't you the one that keeps arguing that the elites and covenant races are integral to halo and it wouldn't be a halo game without them? You say that yet get pissed when they have a BS reason for why the covenant is in the games even though you think they should be in sooo badly. The only reason you think 343I is so bad is because of Karen travis which [b]everybody[/b] acknowledges she had issues with fans when it came to starwars and gears of wars. With covenant squatters being mentioned on earth the [b]implied[/b] post war setting halo 3 set up is obviously out there. but in order for the covenant to be in the games [b]like you wanted[/b] they had to show a very ugly,stupid, conservative side. Which is pretty much what your argument is. I don't care if people think bungie is better than 343I. but don't dick ride bungie as if every little thing they did was perfect and we were completely happy all those ten years. [Edited on 01.01.2013 1:53 PM PST]
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  • OrderedComa

    OrderedComa

    1/1/2013 7:26:09 PM Permalink
    Truth never really trusted the Elites, they were too questioning and quite a large portion of them came to doubt the Prophets over the course of their lives, most prominently during the Human-Covenant War when they questioned why the Prophets demanded humanity's extermination and didn't see what made humans so different from any of the other species in terms of acceptance into the Covenant. Basically, while still mostly obedient to the laws and so forth of the Covenant, the Elites were very much free-thinkers. So Truth wanted them removed and replaced with the Brutes, who while still plenty of intelligent and could easily think for themselves (as quite a few cases have been shown where you have Brutes either outright denying the Great Journey and Covenant religion or having doubts about it), most were very easy to manipulate and keep control over. Basically Truth wanted pliable slaves that would pretty much follow his every whim with loyalty. And then when he tried to have the Brutes kill the Elites off, it wasn't just the Councilors it was [i]all[/i] of the Elites, the Great Schism started. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] ROBERTO jh And...[i]where[/i] did that come from? Everything I've ever heard of about his decision to overthrow the Elites was [i]because[/i] he knew the Elites were starting to get wise to his tricks. He saw the Brutes as easier to control; even if he did start planning this 20 years ago that doesn't change the fact that he did it out of paranoia. He figured the Elites were smart enough to figure it out. You're right he was more concerned about his own power by the end, but that just reaffirms his paranoia. He became mad with power towards the end, paranoid the Elites would revolt. How does 343i's version contradict anything? You certaintly can't help but slide in that jab towards 343i can you?[/quote] Barring Halo 3, Truth was perfectly rational about it all and in full possession of all his wits and faculties, which is why he tried to space it all out and do all of his machinations subtly. His time-table for replacing the Elites had to be accelerated though due to the events on Alpha Halo and its signaling the Covenant's demise. You have the Elites' inward questioning of the Prophets and their discussions among themselves about such subjects increasing with many Elites beginning to become more or less closet sympathizers of humanity, and then you have the Heretics on Threshold...and Thel surviving his encounter with them (which, as the Arbiter, he was not supposed to) and being exposed to Guilty Spark...paranoia had little to nothing to do with any of it. And any jabs made at 343idiocy are pretty much well deserved these days...they've slipped from where they were before, next to nothing they make now holds any similarities with Halo bar names of characters, places, things, and races....they've departed from what Halo actually is and decided to ignore everything that doesn't fit their vision and make the series into something it's not and everything that came before them does not support. At best, things from them are inaccurate, at worst, they're willfully ignoring whatever came before and changing it to fit their own narrow, simplistic views on what Halo should be.
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  • anton1792

    anton1792

    12/28/2012 6:38:46 PM Permalink
    [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] ROBERTO jh He saw the Brutes as easier to control; even if he did start planning this 20 years ago that doesn't change the fact that he did it out of paranoia. He figured the Elites were smart enough to figure it out. You're right he was more concerned about his own power by the end, but that just reaffirms his paranoia. He became mad with power towards the end, paranoid the Elites would revolt. How does 343i's version contradict anything?[/quote] It seems that you do not know what paranoia is. Paranoia is a delusional state of mind in which you, without rational cause, believe that people are out to harm you. Truth was not paranoid about the Elites because not only was he correct about them, but all indications pointed towards him having analysed the situation carefully and rationally. Saying that Truth was paranoid calls into question which his actions and decisions were necessary, which of course changes the entire nature of the Elites and the Covenant, doesn't it? Now it becomes a question of what was true, and before you know it those questions are answered with a sly "None of them". Perfect way to retcon. (E.g. Traviss' Elites) The decision was made in his mind during the Cole Protocol, when Zhar woke him to his senses about the Sangheili threat. Perhaps it was made even before then when it was he himself who admitted to Regret right after that incident that the Elite's faith and trust in the Prophets and the Covenant was decaying, and that only some still appeared to be absolutely zealous. Regret also shared the exact same concerns as Truth did as well. If Truth was paranoid and had nothing substantial or convincing to back up his claims then why was he not overthrown in the years when he was plotting this, or when he gave the order? Why did Regret and Mercy do nothing whilst this madman plotted and then carried out the destruction of the Covenant? Why did all of the other Prophet councillors do nothing whilst this was being planned, and whilst this was being carried out? The answer is because they were along with it. Not all I would imagine, but certainly the vast majority would be sympathizers to Truth's arguments. Those who disagreed and felt that the Elites should be given a chance probably had some rather unfortunate accidents I would imagine. However, are you going to tell me that almost the entire Prophet side of the Covenant leadership is also suffering from the exact same delusion and inability to perceive reality objectively? Brushing off Truth as a madman is such a lazy excuse to explain the Schism. It completely falls flat to the fact that he has a rather large and influential group of peers to answer to who probably wouldn't hesitate to back-stab him and take his place if they got the slightest bit of dirt on him. Whilst Truth is certainly powerful, he would be helpless if the whole council discovered his insanity and blew his schemes wide open to the masses, or at the moment where he declared the Elites unworthy and to be exterminated, grouped together, decried his authority and attempted to bring the Elites and Brutes back together again. Being concerned with the acquisition of power has nothing to do with being paranoid either. That's such a tenuous link at best. There are plenty or reasons why someone would pursue power. The Heretic faction in Halo 2 was regarded as a serious threat and the council accepted the creation of an Arbiter to deal with them. (You know, the thing that is usually created and justified in response to times of great need) Only one month after they formed and already the Heirarchs regard them as that serious of a threat. All Sesa 'Refumee did, as far as we can tell, was talk and let people know that disbelievers exist and that they are organized. The Heirarch's rather extreme reaction to this was revealing about just how degraded the Elite's faith in them really was and that Sesa was accelerating that degradation in Covenant society before Truth was ready. I should have linked this at first, but I forgot. This basically tells you what happens if you weren't aware prior. Truth's decision to remove the Elites was in response to their heresy and faltering faith and wasn't a spontaneous decision. It doesn't say anything about a species that Truth perceived to be heretical, it says they were heretical. [quote][url=http://www.bungie.net/News/content.aspx?type=topnews&cid=16989]But why Brutes? In the wake of Regret's shameful retreat from New Mombasa, the Prophet of Truth continued his maneuvering - one eye always on his ultimate goal: his rightful and holy ascension. For Truth, his own personal passage was paramount. His Godhood would not be denied. Everything else was secondary. And though Truth's duplicitous scheming doesn't come to full fruition until the Elite Honor Guard's failure to protect the Prophet of Regret affords him with the final leverage needed to appoint the Brutes to the lofty position, his plans were never made in haste. They were well laid. When the time came to return his attention to Earth, his expendable regiments needed to be led by Jiralhanae, not Sangheili. Leaving the Elites to scour Earth in search of a Holy Forerunner relic, and ultimately to uncover the most precious and sacrosanct Forerunner artifact in existence - the very portal that opened upon the Ark itself - would have placed all Truth's aspirations upon the shoulders of a species he had already decided to cast aside, [u]a species splintered by heresy and derision, even amongst their own ranks[/u]. Truth's divisive mandate had been set in motion. The Elites had exhausted their usefulness to him, they would not be allowed to meddle in his affairs any longer, and he would not place his rightful transcendence into the hands of incompetents. His word was law. So the Prophet of Truth deploys Brutes. And the Brutes were eager to prove that their loyalty and battle prowess had earned them a seat at the side of the Hierarchs, as the honored protectors of the sacred Covenant. Such blind faith and eagerness marked them as near perfect pawns for Truth to sacrifice.[/url][/quote] [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] ROBERTO jh You certainly can't help but slide in that jab towards 343i can you?[/quote] I was pointing out a truth about the fiction. If you feel that such a thing is a jab then you are just going to have to deal with it somehow.
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  • ROBERTO jh

    ROBERTO jh

    12/28/2012 3:10:20 AM Permalink
    [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] anton1792 The Elites were probably mere months away from a major uprising on their own by the time of Halo 2. The time to get rid of them whilst their guard was still down was now. It wasn't a spontaneous decision either, it was made almost 20 years before Halo 2 and all that time preparations were made. [/quote] And...[i]where[/i] did that come from? Everything I've ever heard of about his decision to overthrow the Elites was [i]because[/i] he knew the Elites were starting to get wise to his tricks. He saw the Brutes as easier to control; even if he did start planning this 20 years ago that doesn't change the fact that he did it out of paranoia. He figured the Elites were smart enough to figure it out. You're right he was more concerned about his own power by the end, but that just reaffirms his paranoia. He became mad with power towards the end, paranoid the Elites would revolt. How does 343i's version contradict anything? You certaintly can't help but slide in that jab towards 343i can you?
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  • Cobra Commander

    Cobra Commander

    12/28/2012 12:50:46 AM Permalink
    Adding to my post. Elites were never sure about the Great Journey that was promised. Many thought it was a spiritual one more than Physical. Truths plans got accelerated when they found the first Halo. Even he realized the flood were a major threat. Thus his desire for power using forerunner tech drove him to many of his actions. Flood made him desperate as misguided as he was and the other Hierarchic. Elites were tools that outlived there usefulness so were replaced by Brutes. MC Killed Regret that would make Truth even more desperate. Elites began to see the political climate change knowing the flood was the true threat. Prophets did not care about Elites only the power of salvaged tech from forerunners and power over the other Covenant races to attain such. Other Covy races fallowed suit with Truths Doctrine. Brutes were installed being new followers who were jealous of Elites and did not ask questions during this period of transition. Still the disagreement over the Great Journey and what it symbolized is the true reason for the Arbiter to shift with other Elites. Realizing with out humanity there was no hope to stop the Flood nor Truth in his misguided Great Journey that would fire the Halo rings. I find it sad that even in the end Truth would not change his mind seeing things as they really were instead of the dream world he was living or trying to create. Using any one or anything to accomplish his goal of ultimate power. Also Truth Mercy and Regret all attained power in 2525 becoming High Prophets then spoke with an oracle that lead to the war with humanity. Looking back at how it started it is easy to see the pattern that would emerge as bungie has hinted at things over the years. Small teams of Elites(Zelots) who would go out to attain knowlage or items of there Religion(Forerunner Tech) in human controlled space. [Edited on 12.27.2012 5:08 PM PST]
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  • Eternal Lasting

    Eternal Lasting

    12/27/2012 11:36:03 PM Permalink
    [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] CoolCJ24 One thing I've never really understood in Halo lore, despite clocking hundreds of hours into games, books and expanded lore; why did the Great Schism occur? I know that it's because the Elites - speficially, Councilors - were being murdered by the Brutes in the uprising of power. But why would the Prophet of Truth want the Elites to be overthrown out of power? I've never understood this. Surely he must have realised that even trying to place the Brutes above them in the heirarchy would be enough to cause a rebellion at a crucial point in the Human-Covenant war.... Why were the Brutes chosen to replace the Elites? It certainly wasn't because the Elites were no longer capable of defending the Prophets; it's obvious to anyone including Truth that the Brutes aren't really any more capable at defending a prophet than Elite Honour Guards are. Can anyone clarify? Seems like a bizarre, unexplained move to me.[/quote] [b]My Guess:[/b] Brutes were dumber and more easily manipulated than The elites to do the Prophets bidding. Although that plan by the Prophets backfired because they have about as much sense ans our modern day politicians. [Edited on 12.27.2012 3:36 PM PST]
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  • Grunt Warchief

    Grunt Warchief

    12/27/2012 9:26:17 PM Permalink
    The Heretics, man. They found out the truth and the Arbiter survived and they needed to shut that down so ..... war.
  • Cobra Commander

    Cobra Commander

    12/27/2012 5:46:11 AM Permalink
    I think i can sum it up. First you have to remember that for the Prophets to maintain control it was a bunch of lies. As most friendships do not start out as such but to remain in control you have to use oaths then lies to deceive the Elites into there narrow honor bound system. So those who would differ on such matters were cast down or killed. Elites who did not understand the true nature of the war with humanity were eager to do battle. Prophets wanted to bury humanity with any Forerunner tech they found along with secrets learned from the Oracle about humanity's forgotten history. So Elites seeing the flood threat and Prophets lies after all this time broke off then sided with humanity who knew the true nature of the flood. What Halo rings would do if fired. This began the Great Schism especially when first Halo was found blaming the new Arbiter for that loss and the Flood menace. The Great Journey Truth thought would bring him untold Forerunner secrets thinking Halo rings would be that key. Thus Elites knew of the flood realizing as well that Prophets cared nothing for them just a tool for power. After Regret was killed by MC this gave him an excuse to use his office to replace the now untrustworthy Elites whom he knew did not share the same vision of Great Journey like those who fallowed Truth. Truth wanted power yet did not understand he was playing with deaths scythe and needed good little lackeys who did not ask too many questions. Elites wised up finally with Arbiter and short jaws assistance.(Not to mention many events Elites Witnessed to Truths new tools) I am sure after Halo 3 events they probably went home or some went out to kick Bruty butt who were fallowing Truths doctrine. [Edited on 12.26.2012 10:00 PM PST]
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  • ZealotSG
  • TedToaster22

    TedToaster22

    12/27/2012 5:07:50 AM Permalink
    In addition to what others have said, the Elites were starting to wise up to what was going on in the Human-Covenant War and the real reason behind it, and unlike the Brutes, they very well could have discovered it, which would have ruined the Prophets.
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  • Wicked Navajo

    Wicked Navajo

    12/26/2012 5:11:16 PM Permalink
    [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] agent wash282 One there were some members who thought that the elites couldn't protect them. Two the elites were getting restless, most species they had encountered would be fought for awhile and then offered peace by joining the covenant which some elites believed humans were worthy of. And three some elites were learning that the prophets were lying (halo 2 heretics) thanks to 343. The last 2 I believe were the most important factors and the first made for a good excuse.[/quote]This. Also the fact I think that the Brutes were almost pure muscle and the prophets thought they would make better bodyguards. Maybe.
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  • ninjakenzen

    ninjakenzen

    12/26/2012 4:30:11 PM Permalink
    The Brutes and Elites always had tension between each other and it was escalating. The Prophets had to pick a side and they chose the Brutes. Due to a number of reasons such as loyalty and big dumb apes. -The failure of installation 04 was a good excuse to bring up for the prophets as the Elites or specifically Arbiter's failure.
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  • anton1792

    anton1792

    12/26/2012 4:20:30 PM Permalink
    The Elites were probably mere months away from a major uprising on their own by the time of Halo 2. The time to get rid of them whilst their guard was still down was now. It wasn't a spontaneous decision either, it was made almost 20 years before Halo 2 and all that time preparations were made. If not for the Flood and the discovery of the Ark, then the Elites would probably have been exterminated. Humanity was already defeated by that point as well, so it's not as if they were an important consideration at that point. Truth also didn't care about what ultimately happened to the Covenant any more, only his own personal power. Sometime between Contact Harvest and Halo 2, his motivations changed, and he wasn't going to risk his personal "ascension", whatever that may be (I don't think he was being literal), in the hands of the Elites. It's different in 343i's version of the story though. The Encyclopaedia says that it's because Truth was paranoid and hence none of his decisions were informed with facts or objectivity, hence logic is not needed to explain anything.
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  • MoonDawg

    MoonDawg

    12/26/2012 4:05:38 AM Permalink
    I think the Prophets blamed the Elites for letting Installation 04 get wasted. I think it was silly to overthrow them at such a critical point in the war, but we all know that the Prophets don't have great judgment.
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  • KaneXX12

    KaneXX12

    12/26/2012 3:57:22 AM Permalink
    The elites were beggining to get smart of things and less enthusiastic towards listening to the Prophets. It was getting harder and harder for them to control the elites. Meanwhile, the brutes obeyed them mindlessly, without question. The Prophets became impressed with the Brutes' strength and loyalty. So, they wanted Brutes to lead the Covenant military instead of the Elites.
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  • Manny

    Manny

    12/26/2012 3:31:58 AM Permalink
    [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] charger544 I would think that they wanted to have a species that they could fully control, and keep in line. The Brutes weren't very smart.[/quote]This is the real reason behind the replacement of Elites with Brutes. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] agent wash282 One there were some members who thought that the elites couldn't protect them.[/quote]Some Prophets perhaps, but Truth merely used the assasination as an excuse to say Elites weren't capable of it. It wasn't a REAL reason, merely a platform to start the Great Schism. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] agent wash282 Two the elites were getting restless, most species they had encountered would be fought for awhile and then offered peace by joining the covenant which some elites believed humans were worthy of. And three some elites were learning that the prophets were lying (halo 2 heretics) thanks to 343.[/quote]These two things I think were the reasons that caused Truth to rush the Brutes into their position of power. In essence they caused the Great Schism as we know it. I don't think Truth intended it to be a civil war. Truth isn't retarded. He knew what such a drastic change would cause, but time was running out. The Elites were catching on. They had to be silenced, starting with the Elite councilors.
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  • rst7503

    rst7503

    12/26/2012 3:30:31 AM Permalink
    Also, the Elites and Prophets were ancient enemies before they came together with the Covenant. Maybe the Hierarchs wanted to get back at the Elites with the Brutes, who already had a huge grudge against the Elites and were by no means as stupid as everybody thinks they are.
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  • HauntedJono

    HauntedJono

    12/26/2012 2:34:32 AM Permalink
    I think Truth wanted to kill off the Elites because they couldn't protect the prophets when Chief killed Regret. I also think that Truth was afraid of The Arbiter because he was doing extremely well on his dangerous, life-threatening missions. He probably thought that Arbiter and Half-Jaw were doing too well on their missions.
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  • agent wash282

    agent wash282

    12/26/2012 2:19:19 AM Permalink
    One there were some members who thought that the elites couldn't protect them. Two the elites were getting restless, most species they had encountered would be fought for awhile and then offered peace by joining the covenant which some elites believed humans were worthy of. And three some elites were learning that the prophets were lying (halo 2 heretics) thanks to 343. The last 2 I believe were the most important factors and the first made for a good excuse.
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  • Typhoon

    Typhoon

    12/26/2012 2:13:01 AM Permalink
    [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] charger544 I would think that they wanted to have a species that they could fully control, and keep in line. The Brutes weren't very smart.[/quote] That's a fair point, but surely the Elites were fairly easy to delude what with their honor-bound society constantly putting themselves on a silver platter for the Prophets.
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  • Rumple Dumple

    Rumple Dumple

    12/26/2012 2:05:31 AM Permalink
    I would think that they wanted to have a species that they could fully control, and keep in line. The Brutes weren't very smart.
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