JavaScript is required to use Bungie.net

#Halo

donquixote123

donquixote123

10/15/2012 9:07:22 AM
As the countdown reaches the final weeks before launch of 343 Studio's new Halo, I can't help but turn my thoughts back to the developer who created this whole franchise. And as I see that Bungie has for the greater part become very quiet as of late (not unlike a parent whose only child has grown and left home), I wonder what the feeling is here about this game and the job 343 is doing. I understand that the squabbles with the publisher may have entailed a gag order of some sort on any commentary from Bungie, as such could no doubt undermine the success of the new Halo. Indeed, it would have very much the same effect as Cervantes' withering rebuttal of the many authors who attempted to continue his Don Quixote while he was still in the process of finishing the work himself. But the more I look at this game, Halo 4 seems to me to be very much a work appropriate to the 'Covenant' school of thought, which is to say, more an effort of imitation than innovation. The manifold pressures on 343 have to be great, about that there can be no doubt. They are under extreme duress to deliver a title that will not only match the success of its predecessor, but also effectively compete in a marketplace that is dominated by essentially similar FTS games. Their solution, from what I can gather watching videos such as this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmOoGucyMNg&feature=g-u-u is apparently to adopt the style of another hugely popular franchise, which for the sake of dignity will not be named here, and blend it with the basic formula of classic Halo. Now this foundation has always revolved around several key components: one will recall the formula of Weapon+Grenade+Melee as the cornerstone of this foundation. The arena style gameplay, which drops players in at equal strength and leaves them to compete for better weapons on the map, is also paramount. This is now being changed, more to match the style of the other franchise which we declined to name. What concerns me is that, on the one hand, I do not believe a true 'Halo' multiplayer experience can be carried off with this hybrid formula; and on the other, 343 is seemingly adamant about having 'brought something new and fresh' to the experience, when in fact they have done nothing more than taken two solid franchises and made from them a very strange centaur. This creature, it may be said, has too many limbs, and it remains to be seen whether it will not move clumsily and haphazardly, even laying balancing issues aside. As someone who is a writer of stories and philosophy, I cannot imagine the importunity of another person or party taking over control of a 'work' which I have been meticulously crafting for nearly a decade, and moreover mishandling it, or what is worse, borrowing only the title and prestige which is rightly mine and applying it to the fruit of their tyronism. And when the chief concern seems not to have been contributing a quality product, but rather the beginning of a new chapter in a series which, like Cervantes, I had firmly set in the ground as finished, and that this is furthermore being done to serve crude material ends---I say, this is a worthy outrage. There is so much cause for annoyance and exasperation at the incredulity of this new developer. They have demonstrated that they are competent for menial tasks, such as remastering a finished game to current generation standards (and this is indeed a fine project for a burgeoning studio); but the distance that exists between creating a work and merely amending a work is truly vast, and really of two different species altogether. When I then hear that they already have pretension to announce a trilogy before the leading title has even been completed, I cannot repress indignation at the arrogance and upstart flamboyancy of this studio. Here they are planning to develop three games across a lustrum or thereabouts, and yet they cannot set aside adequate time and resources to bring out a Beta version for the inaugural title. It is not so much that the game is being mishandled, but that it is being taken so far out of the spirit of the originals which concerns me. Whatever they have carried over from earlier games is not their property: they 'inherited' it from Bungie, and whatever superficial embellishments they may make here and there does not change that fact. The supposed 'new' content is, in the face and in the heart, borrowed or adapted from other franchises, the convenience of this being that Halo has steadfastly avoided these conventions and kept to their own formula. Nor is this all. The importance of this formula cannot be underrated; in attempting to capture a 'new audience' (which is only to say, the audience held by other franchises) they will necessarily have to dilute the idiosyncratic features and create a product that has mass appeal among the foremost of its virtues. Again the dedicated player will find himself more and more in the minority. For all its accessibility and wild variation, order has always been at the core of Halo, down to the respawn timers of weapons and vehicles and the equal strength of all players. The goal of this, I believe, is to force gameplay to revolve around real talent acquired through careful practice and learning, rather than simply awarding those players who spend the most time idling away at an achievement bar. This idea of rewarding players who do nothing in the game is entirely misguided: it makes the inept lazy and the skilled apathetic. In Halo Reach I noticed and continue to observe a real disinterest in winning, in contributing to the team effort, in favor of excelling individually and earning as many credits as possible for oneself. This behavior is reinforced by the fact that winning confers only a miniscule addition to the final tally of credits, and losing only a small deduction. With unlockable features which actually give a benefit to gameplay (whereas, hitherto, all 'unlockables' have been strictly decorative), this 'me first' behavior can only get worse. Already in Halo Reach things are bad: everyone confines himself to a party of a few players, rather than interfacing with the team as a whole; in every game there is fighting and fratricide for the best weapons; teams do not choose to keep together even after winning, and so on. Again, this selfish style of play can only preponderate with the new inclusion of rewards which cater to playing for oneself first and the team last. --Is Bungie bitter? It certainly has every reason to be: I have touched on several multiplayer issues, but the alterations to the narrative in the campaign must be intolerable. I do not understand why 343 thought it wise to bring in a second race of 'forerunners' for the sake of combat alone, and why every contrivance is being made to keep the Covenant in the game, when there is no good reason for the war to still be on. Here again we are perhaps seeing the limits to the creativity of a new developer who is struggling to strike a balance between what is known to work and what ought to work in theory. I thought Ensemble handled the Halo RTS very well; yet I am sure that, at the time, Bungie was quite displeased to have another studio take over production of a marquee title. So what, in a word, is the general feeling? I understand if courtesy and ligation do not allow Bungie to speak freely on the issue of their franchise being handled or mishandled;--they have certainly kept quiet the indignation at having their property confiscated by the very publisher whose foray into the domain of console gaming they carried single-handedly. Will Bungie ever pass judgment on the new Halo? And is there any favorable opinion about all this questionable change? I am not one to speak from ignorance: I will be playing Halo 4 myself before I deliver my verdict. But there can be no doubt, with things being as they are, that Bungie has cause to be bitter and more than bitter. As hopeful as I am that this new game will be worthy of its predecessors, the nearer we draw to release, the less promising it seems. --Quixote [Edited on 10.15.2012 1:11 AM PDT]

Post Preview Cancel

  • Chronarch

    Chronarch

    10/20/2012 6:40:10 PM Permalink
    [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Madness87 You only believe that Halo 3 left a lot of things unfinished because you look at it in hindsight from future games and info.[/quote] It's a matter of some contention to me that you [b]assume[/b] this when I've been arguing that Halo 4 was inevitable ever since I finished Halo 3. [quote]With the effective end of the Covenant, and the removal of the main threat humanity faced, the story should have ended for the time being.[/quote] No. 1) The Covenant has been identified as simply a MacGuffin for the real threat - the Forerunner legacy and the Flood. Halo CE-3 were constantly building towards the opening up of the larger picture. 2) Even in Halo 3, there are a number of hints which imply that the Covenant weren't defeated. Again, it's the illusion of closure you're taking at face value - Cortana's "it's finished" line. It's not, and anyone who paid attention to Halo 3 knows this. [quote]Yes, anything could arise in the future. But Chief was drifting in space for who knows how many years. In the end, we see it enter near a planet. But who's to say that it hadn't been hundreds to thousands of years at that point?[/quote] This point is utterly irrelevant. The passage of time he may or may not have been in space is irrelevant, we know what he was heading for because Mendicant Bias outright told us in the final Terminal. [quote]And the only reason is because in 2006 when they finished up the Halo 3 story for release in 2007, Bungie wanted to end Halo in a way that the main story is done so they could focus on other aspects, but to leave it a little ambiguous for the future.[/quote] What they wanted to do is irrelevant, since it's clear that they [i]didn't[/i] do it. [quote]What major plot points were left unfinished after Halo 3? The tidbits are anecdotal on what you, as a fan, wanted to know more about.[/quote] Note: * refers to plot points introduced/left hanging in Halo 3. (credit to Roberto for this comprehensive list I've altered.) *1) 6 of the 7 Halo rings are still primed and ready to fire - a shadow that will forever loom over the Halo universe as long as it's unresolved. *2) The Gravemind tells us that defeat at Installation 04B only delays his return at the end of Halo 3. *3) Medicant Bias virtually screams to the player that the Chief's story is not done, informing us that: *4) The Forerunners are not dead... *5) ...and that the path to the Forerunners is "frought with peril," suggesting a new threat. *6) No explanation whatsoever was given to these mysterious new beings referenced by the Didact called the Precursors. Later forming the basis of Greg Bear's 'cosmic game' in the Forerunner Saga, and which we now know is feeding directly into Halo 4. *7) Nor was any explanation given as to what "following in their footsteps" means when the Didact started talking about the Great Journey he will go on after he fires the Halos. *7.1) Therefore, The Great Journey does in fact exist, but has been misinterpretted by the Prophets. What is the Journey, and what is the signifigance? 8) Mankind has yet to uphold their destiny as the guardians of the universe (as mankind's destiny is the entire thematic point of the series, not continuing the story would mean voiding the relevance of the franchise as a story). This forms the thematic basis for the Reclaimer Trilogy, as the name itself implies. The Reclamation period has begun. 9) We do not know if humanity can survive the inevitable tensions between the Covenant client races, the Elites, and themselves. *10) We did not know (at the time, until Cryptum) what made humanity so special and worth saving in the eyes of Librarian. She said that we held the answer to many Forerunner secrets. *11) Cortana, who holds the largest wealth of Forerunner knowledge in the universe aside from the Forerunners themselves, is slowly drifting into insanity. How can anyone claim that Halo 3 provided any kind of satisfying closure when we spend the whole game building up to her rescue only for her to be discarded and left to rot into insanity half an hour later? *12) And finally, Master Chief, the selected messenger of Medicant Bias, is drifting near an unknown Forerunner world at the very end of Halo 3. The novels have since added plenty of substance to these plot points and have developed them to set up answers in the Reclaimer Trilogy.
    Reply Start Related Topic
    Post Preview Cancel
  • Madness

    Madness

    10/20/2012 5:44:09 PM Permalink
    [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] ajw34307 Your Harry Potter analogy doesn't work. Harry Potter was completely finished, the story was resolved and there was a lot of closure to that series. Halo 3 left a dozen major plot points dangling with many being intorduced in the [i]last[/i] mission. There was absolutely no closure, except for the [i]illusion[/i] of closure when John goes into cryo. The story of Halo 3 made Halo 4 inevitable. And here's the thing, it's clear they've deliberately done this for someone else to pick up on, since the plan was to break away from Microsoft and start anew after 2007, the same year 343i was created - it was the renewal of Bungie's contract which allowed them to make ODST and Reach before they finally bowed out of the picture.[/quote] You only believe that Halo 3 left a lot of things unfinished because you look at it in hindsight from future games and info. With the effective end of the Covenant, and the removal of the main threat humanity faced, the story should have ended for the time being. Yes, anything could arise in the future. But Chief was drifting in space for who knows how many years. In the end, we see it enter near a planet. But who's to say that it hadn't been hundreds to thousands of years at that point? And the only reason is because in 2006 when they finished up the Halo 3 story for release in 2007, Bungie wanted to end Halo in a way that the main story is done so they could focus on other aspects, but to leave it a little ambiguous for the future. What major plot points were left unfinished after Halo 3? The tidbits are anecdotal on what you, as a fan, wanted to know more about. I only used Harry Potter as an example, but you could apply it to almost any large franchise with a somewhat deep story. Anyways, I guess my point has been made, hopefully others realize what I mean somewhat. As for Harry Potter, JK Rowling has stated in interviews she purposely added that little "epilogue" at the end so that it gives readers some closure as she focuses on other things. But is the story really finished? I could think of a dozen+ things I'd need answered for it still.
    Reply Start Related Topic
    Post Preview Cancel
  • Chronarch

    Chronarch

    10/20/2012 1:34:00 PM Permalink
    Your Harry Potter analogy doesn't work. Harry Potter was completely finished, the story was resolved and there was a lot of closure to that series. Halo 3 left a dozen major plot points dangling with many being intorduced in the [i]last[/i] mission. There was absolutely no closure, except for the [i]illusion[/i] of closure when John goes into cryo. The story of Halo 3 made Halo 4 inevitable. And here's the thing, it's clear they've deliberately done this for someone else to pick up on, since the plan was to break away from Microsoft and start anew after 2007, the same year 343i was created - it was the renewal of Bungie's contract which allowed them to make ODST and Reach before they finally bowed out of the picture.
    Reply Start Related Topic
    Post Preview Cancel
  • Madness

    Madness

    10/20/2012 1:33:32 PM Permalink
    [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Sp4rksLT The only bitterness I could think of is 343/Microsoft taking the franchise in a way different path, that Bungie doesn't like or whatever. Or the decrease in quality that WILL come, someday when MS will had milked Halo to it's bare bones. Other than that, I think most of Bungie employees are happy to be independant and do what THEY want, not what they are told.[/quote] Yes, but Bungie would have preferred to do what they want and not what they are told, while still holding onto the rights for Halo. Just because they were tired of developing for it, didn't mean they wanted to lose any/all rights to it and let a rival studio develop it.
    Reply Start Related Topic
    Post Preview Cancel
  • Sp4rksLT

    Sp4rksLT

    10/20/2012 1:29:42 PM Permalink
    The only bitterness I could think of is 343/Microsoft taking the franchise in a way different path, that Bungie doesn't like or whatever. Or the decrease in quality that WILL come, someday when MS will had milked Halo to it's bare bones. Other than that, I think most of Bungie employees are happy to be independant and do what THEY want, not what they are told.
    Reply Start Related Topic
    Post Preview Cancel
  • Madness

    Madness

    10/20/2012 1:24:47 PM Permalink
    No one is hating on 343 Industries for anything. My posts were about the original question about whether Bungie is happy or sad and possibly bitter. Yes a different company will bring a different approach and ideology to Halo. Just like Retro Studios brought a different approach to Donkey Kong and Metroid. But isn't it more likely, that while Bungie may shout from the rooftops that they are glad 343 Industries is carrying the mantle forward, that probably a significant amount of the employees at Bungie wished Halo remained with the studio? So that they could revisit it later on their own time and tell the stories they wanted to tell? Do you remember when the Halo film fell through? There was significant chatter about Bungie and Microsoft being at odds with how the franchise should be carried or run. Now it's been a while since Bungie has relinquished total control and for the foreseeable future, they will be busy with "The New Hotness(TM)", but it doesn't mean they wanted another studio to take the IP they created over 10 years, what studio would? If Bungie employees wanted to keep making Halo games now or carrying the studio forward, they would have. They didn't want to, which is precisely why they wanted to become independent again. If you don't want to think of the studio as a collective whole, then even individual employees, why didn't they jump ship to 343 Industries when it came to halo? A misconception around forums is that 343 Industries is made up of Bungie staff who loved Halo and wanted to keep making it. So far I can only count three former Bungie employees now working there. Frank O'Connor, Chad Armstrong (Shishka) and Vic DeLeon. Of these three, none of them worked on Halo:CE and I believe Frank was only community manager. An analogy I like to use, is JK Rowling and the Harry Potter series. Now the harry potter series is effectively finished. It is perhaps the highest grossing film and literature series in history. Now while JK Rowling sold the rights to Harry Potter for everything from toys to films to amusement parks. She retained any/all rights associated with the book. Let's say she was "down on her luck" again and forced to relinquish literary control of the Harry Potter series. Would she truly be happy if some other author comes and writes a new chapter in the series? Starts a whole new story? What about if Warner Bros. makes a new film that establishes a whole new story? Why is it any different for Bungie? Yes Bungie isn't an individual. But collectively, Bungie as an entity spent over 12 years making Halo what it is. To add to this point, did anyone here read the interview with Tony Goodman, founder of former Ensemble Studios that made Halo Wars? He stated that Bungie was not happy the Halo brand was being used for a different genre. He said, "another problem was that Bungie was never up for it... Bungie was kind of sore about the idea". Now yes this was when Bungie was still working on ODST and Reach at this point, but it shows how Bungie was protective of it's IP and didn't want it in the hands of a new studio. So, I'll end my rambling here yet again, but my final point is, IP's don't need to have a new game every year or two to be relevant to a studio. How many years did Nintendo go before making a new Star Fox, Metroid game? What about Earthbound? Just because Nintendo doesn't make/commission a new Earthbound game, means another studio should and that Nintendo would be happy about it. Ask any founder, developer in the industry. No studio wants to share IP's with another, and no studio wants to see an IP as big as Halo, an IP that basically made Bungie, that rivals some of the world's greatest gaming franchises, in the hands of another studio. Also tell me something,how happy do you think Bungie should be to see their own game franchise possibly go up against their own new franchise? Halo 4 may come out now, while Bungie's new game is Soon(TM). What about next gen? I think it would be the greatest insult for Halo to go up against bungie's new franchise, and probably even outsell it.
    Reply Start Related Topic
    Post Preview Cancel
  • JetpackRaccoon

    JetpackRaccoon

    10/20/2012 10:44:28 AM Permalink
    i can't understand people who hate that 343 are adding some things and also hate that the covenant are still around. halo 4 + nothing new - covenant = ... flood mongoose racing? O_o i'm glad that people who enjoy and care about both the story and game play are continuing to make halo games. I bet a lot of Bungie people are, too.
    Reply Start Related Topic
    Post Preview Cancel
  • The Quicken

    The Quicken

    10/20/2012 9:32:42 AM Permalink
    [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Simjon4two I don't think that Bungie is/was bitter to give Halo up. In the bonus videos of the Halo 3 Limited/Legendary Edition it seemed more like they were kind of fed up with Halo. They certainly didn't hesitate when they had the choice between developing Halo for the rest of their life or becoming independant.[/quote] Agreed. I'm enjoying 343i enthusiastic approach to Halo, it's apparent in everything I've seen recently from H4 game play vids to FuD to the the details and "nods" to halo lore in the recent Scanner trailer. [Edited on 10.20.2012 1:33 AM PDT]
    Reply Start Related Topic
    Post Preview Cancel
  • CrabbySpider
  • Wurstsalat

    Wurstsalat

    10/17/2012 10:26:23 PM Permalink
    I don't think that Bungie is/was bitter to give Halo up. In the bonus videos of the Halo 3 Limited/Legendary Edition it seemed more like they were kind of fed up with Halo. They certainly didn't hesitate when they had the choice between developing Halo for the rest of their life or becoming independant.
    Reply Start Related Topic
    Post Preview Cancel
  • MaesHaze

    MaesHaze

    10/17/2012 3:05:30 PM Permalink
    [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] flamedude Personally I can't see Bungie being bitter...... more disappointed and quite possibly frustrated at what 343i have created. Artistically Halo 4 is a frankenstein, parts of it are great and new, parts of it are copied from Reach directly, parts of it are new and ugly, parts have canonical reasons behind them, others are just artistic license. When I look at Halo 4 I just see an inconsistent mess.[/quote] I'm sure most people would disagree with me, but I completely dislike the promethian look and most of the concept of their being. but that is just me.
    Reply Start Related Topic
    Post Preview Cancel
  • flamedude

    flamedude

    10/17/2012 11:09:37 AM Permalink
    Personally I can't see Bungie being bitter...... more disappointed and quite possibly frustrated at what 343i have created. Artistically Halo 4 is a frankenstein, parts of it are great and new, parts of it are copied from Reach directly, parts of it are new and ugly, parts have canonical reasons behind them, others are just artistic license. When I look at Halo 4 I just see an inconsistent mess.
    Reply Start Related Topic
    Post Preview Cancel
  • Twelve Large
  • OrderedComa

    OrderedComa

    10/17/2012 5:54:05 AM Permalink
    Oi, what an eyeful of text, at least you're a good typer and can maintain proper grammar and actually structure your wall of text :) So for that I applaud you, anyways, getting to the actual topic... All of this is very, very easily and simply summed up with just one, single, little word..............no. I don't see a single thing in the OP that I think is at all true or accurate, all I see is your opinion and just that. I don't see anything remotely factual, just opinions and assumptions >_> What would Bungie have to even be bitter about? O_o I'm not seeing any reason why they would be...who knows, maybe some individuals are, but I don't think any significant number of employees are at all bitter, because I see no reason for them to be at all, they very idea just sounds absurd to me... And really? Bringing out the retarded, old, tired "Halo is becoming Call of Duty" routine? -__- That argument has never been true, and it remains untrue now. Halo is Halo, and Call of Duty is Call of Duty. And the behavior of gamers? It's been like that for ages, almost ever since the ability to play with other gamers online first came into being...the whole "me first" attitude as you put it will be there regardless of how the game itself plays, humans are selfish creatures by nature, playing games doesn't change that, the only options are to either get used to it...or stop playing all together. And oh boo hoo, you don't get a beta, poor baby, let me play a sad, sad song for you on the world's smallest violin...who the hell cares about a public Beta? While they're nice to have, they're not needed, so many games go without a public Beta and they are completely and totally fine and dandy. And what the hell is wrong with planning a trilogy from the start? That's a good thing, it means more Halo and it gives time for 343i to properly develop and pace the story. The Human-Covenant War Trilogy are great games, but they kind of suffer a little in terms of plot for being an unintentional trilogy. There wasn't time to properly flesh every little detail and plot out. "Second race of Forerunners"? Where the hell are you getting that absurd notion? Do you mean the Prometheans? They're a caste/class amongst the Forerunners, they're the warriors and soldiers of the Forerunners, they're not a totally separate species or anything like what you seem to be assuming at all. And again, I don't see any problem with the Storm Faction itself at all either, there would still be a minority of Elites that want to continue fighting as well as other Covenant species...and they aren't carrying on the war either, it's one small fleet that came to Requiem looking for the Didact, they're not waging war on the UNSC as far as we know, except battles and skirmishes on and around Requiem, that's the furthest extent of the fighting. To be quite honest I think this whole thread is dumb :/ I agree with [i]almost[/i] everything that AJW has been saying. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Madness87[/quote] Don't be dumb, you have no reason to think that anyone in Bungie is at all bitter other than your own opinion on the matter and your own bitterness. And either way, no one is going to share the same opinion, they're not a hive-mind. Ultimately, it doesn't matter, who cares if anyone in Bungie is bitter or not, it has no affect on the game itself whatsoever unless someone sabotaged it. What anyone in Bungie thinks about Halo 4 really doesn't matter. And as for people complaining about there actually being a Halo 4 and how Halo 3 was the end...guess what, Bungie left it on a massive cliffhanger on purpose, they said that they'd planned for a Halo 4 [i]eventually[/i]...and when before Reach was coming out, Halo 4 was actually what they'd initially planned on, but decided against it because they didn't want to start a story they couldn't finish. In any case, Halo 4 was conceptualized from the minute Halo 3 ended.
    Reply Start Related Topic
    Post Preview Cancel
  • ErranInfigo
  • Pokeh

    Pokeh

    10/16/2012 9:29:23 PM Permalink
    I don't at all believe that Bungie is bitter about this. I remember way back when Halo 3 was in development - it was supposed to be the last Halo game, then ODST came out, and then Reach. I honestly think that by Reach, Bungie was probably getting tired of making Halo games. It feels like Bungie tried to make the best of some kind of contractual obligation, rather than saying "Yes, this is a game we really wanted to make" Of course, that's just my feeling from having played the game - there doesn't seem to be quite as much polish put in to certain aspects of the game (especially custom game settings) - maps were pulled straight from the campaign (Bungie insists that these were purpose built, but I have a hard time believing it. They're the worst maps out of any Halo game). And besides, Bungie gets to work on a new IP now - and I get the feeling that this is something Bungie's been wanting to do for a while now, so why not just let them crack on with it? As for 343i, they're clearly very passionate about what they're doing, and the more I see of Halo 4 the more I'm convinced that a change in developer was just what the series needed. The new campaign looks amazing, multiplayer looks more up to date, and Forge looks better than ever. Impressions from people that have played the game at events like PAX, Eurogamer, etc are all very positive. Lets not forget that 343i isn't just a bunch of random kids that MS suddenly threw together - 343 is full of some of the industries best artists, programmers, designers, etc. And to top it all off you've got Frankie in charge of the whole shebang - an ex-Bungie employee whos enthusiasm for Halo I find very contagious. Maybe some Bungie employees are wishing that they could work on Halo 4, but it's worth remembering that employees like Marty, Joseph Staten and the like have been working on Halo for over ten years - but at the same time as an artist, wouldn't it be nice to start from a clean slate after a while? No running themes, no expectations (other than your pedigree as a studio) - Bungie can do whatever it wants. That has to be extremely liberating after ten plus years of working on the same franchise. I don't think that Bungie would really be bitter about it - letting go of the series might have been difficult on an emotional level, but I tend to find that game devs are appreciative of each others work (since they can understand the hard work that goes in to releasing a AAA game). Bungie is most likely fine about the whole thing.
    Reply Start Related Topic
    Post Preview Cancel
  • ROBERTO jh

    ROBERTO jh

    10/16/2012 12:41:22 PM Permalink
    [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Madness87 What do you expect Bungie to do? Openly criticize their fellow developers? Of course they will smile and say it's great, they can't wait to play Halo etc. Marty isn't going to criticize a fellow musician openly, especially one accomplished like Davidge. But inside, there isn't a bone in Marty's body that doesn't itch for him to have scored Halo 4. [/quote] How do you know that, other than your own personalized assumptions of a man you've probably never met? It's possible, what you say, but it's also equally possible that Marty genuinely is happy with Davidge's score and that he's doing the music. I recall him saying that Davidge's score is pretty much exactly what he'd have done. Now are you going to just ignore the [i]actual[/i] facts we have and make up your own assumptions simply because you don't agree with those facts? Of course Bungie is sad to see it go, as I acknowledged already, and of course some of them probably would like to have continued working on it (as a few of them went with 343i). But if Reach is anything to go by, it's pretty obvious Bungie was starting to get bored with the series. Reach had none of that soul the other games had, as if they were going through the paces. Bungie needed to expand there horizons now that they were succesful and look to new oppurtunities beyond Halo.
    Reply Start Related Topic
    Post Preview Cancel
  • Twelve Large

    Twelve Large

    10/16/2012 12:14:03 PM Permalink
    abcnerd, wtf? i'd only be bitter if i had no balls and they were in a jar next to ling ling.
  • Money

    Money

    10/16/2012 10:11:59 AM Permalink
    Let's face it, Halo was never a good game... It was just another shooter like Call of Duty and Doom. Sure, its fun for a while but the multiplayer is nothing more than spawning and shooting. In all the Halo campaigns you only needed to shoot and dash towards checkpoints. If you finished a campaign you always get an lame short cutscene and if you beated legendary the cutscene is 3 seconds longer! Yay! I admit, it was fun when I was 15 and joined this site. it seems that Bungie is taking all the time they need to craft a perfect new IP! Don't forget that Activision will give Bungie a huge bonus if Destiny gets a 9 or higher! Ofcourse, after the first Destiny has become a classic they will start milking it just like halo and cod. I think that they all where super happy when Microsoft couldn't force them anymore to milk master chief! [Edited on 10.16.2012 2:15 AM PDT]
    Reply Start Related Topic
    Post Preview Cancel
  • ZealotSG

    ZealotSG

    10/16/2012 8:24:20 AM Permalink
    [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] the real Janaka [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Sliding Ghost [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] donquixote123 I do not understand why 343 thought it wise to bring in a second race of 'forerunners' for the sake of combat alone...[/quote]Forerunners would be a -blam!- to fight in gameplay. Chief's shielding pales in comparison. Chief's guns could be used as toothpicks![/quote]When I thought of a continuation of the Master Chief's story, I thought of Combat Skin... [/quote]So did I but then they'd have to increase the numbers and damage even more to balance. I like how the Prometheans are designed to fight the Flood, it means their weapons are lethal but not terribly lethal. Besides, my enemy number expectations have been fulfilled: Knights spawns Watchers, Watchers resurrects Knight, spawns Crawlers [Edited on 10.16.2012 12:25 AM PDT]
    Reply Start Related Topic
    Post Preview Cancel
  • Madness

    Madness

    10/16/2012 3:29:46 AM Permalink
    What do you expect Bungie to do? Openly criticize their fellow developers? Of course they will smile and say it's great, they can't wait to play Halo etc. Marty isn't going to criticize a fellow musician openly, especially one accomplished like Davidge. But inside, there isn't a bone in Marty's body that doesn't itch for him to have scored Halo 4. He made a score so iconic, it's up there as one of the most recognizable in gaming history. It's so recognizable, 343 Industries even used it during the e3 reveal trailer. A mature company will learn to move on, will get excited for their new IP's. It doesn't change the fact that a game series they spent a decade creating, no longer belongs to them. To say because they accept it, doesn't mean they are sad or bitter is foolish. I bet it affects the ancients more than the middle-schoolers or n00bs at Bungie. It's a fact in the games industry. Look at Insomniac. They spent 20 years creating games and IP's they no longer have control over. Think about it if it was you. You worked at a small company for 10+ years. You created something that was instantly loved by millions. You spent countless hours developing it, refining it. All those hours, all those interviews, all those long nights. And in the end, it no longer belongs to you and someone else gets to use the success for themselves. Yes 343 Industries is made up of great people, and yes they will do a great job with Halo 4. It doesn't change the fact that Bungie would have preferred to be the ones who decide what to do with Halo if at all. To someone above who said 343 Industries did it all from scratch. 343 Industries is still using the Reach engine. Not only that but they are using assets already created. Also, when did Bungie get an unlimited budget and close to 4 years for a single Halo game? Halo 3 came out in 2007 and the problem was, it was a new console generation. In that time, they also had to make map packs, and ODST. They launched Halo:Reach in 2010. So in less than 3 years, they released 3 map packs for Halo 3, they released ODST (all-new 4-6 hour campaign), and then released Halo:Reach. 343 Industries was created in 2007 when planning for Halo, post-Bungie started. They literally had an unlimited budget, and a 2012 release date. Development started in 2008 and the game went gold on September 27th of this year. They had nearly 4 years of development, and not only that, they also got all of the assets of Halo:Reach.
    Reply Start Related Topic
    Post Preview Cancel
  • ROBERTO jh

    ROBERTO jh

    10/16/2012 3:05:56 AM Permalink
    [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] ajw34307 I honestly don't think it matters. At all. What is done is done, the top dogs at Bungie signed off this series to Microsoft with their contract over a decade ago and it was obvious they were: A) Going to stop making Halo at some point. B) Going to leave it open to be picked up on, due to the fact that their writers [seemingly on purpose] resolved absolutely nothing in Halo 3 and considered making Halo 4 before deciding that they didn't want to start a story they couldn't finish. You lot seem to be treating Bungie as a singular mindset of people who all share the same thoughts, ideals and emotions regarding them moving on from Halo. At what point did anyone here ever have the insight into the supposed 'collective' mindset that they know how they're feeling? People need to stop treating Bungie like they're the incarnation of Christ. They're a studio comprised of passionate and talented people, they are not the [i]only[/i] studio of passionate and talented people. There were times where the writers treated Halo as a complete joke. Certain characters and stories were not given the quality treatment they should have had and the dichotomy established between various forms of canonical material just paved the way for lazy writing. Now many people may disagree with 343i's direction on some things in this series (particularly the Kilo-5 Trilogy), but the very [i]least[/i] you can say for them is that their writers have absolutely and completely given the canon their full attention and made it a primary priority for the extra canonical material to be interweaved with the games. Not only that, but characters Bungie's writers previously treated like a joke became fully realised as much deeper entities - I speak mainly of course about 343 Guilty Spark. They have treated this part of the Halo franchise at least with more integrity and consistency than their predecessors ever did. Whether they're is bitter or not is irrelevant. They are where they are - out in the wilderness of today's [terrible] gaming community and will keep pushing to make games they want to play for others to enjoy. Doesn't matter if they're not as successful as Halo in the long run, its not about them expecting to come out as top dog when they've jumped into something totally new, that expectation is devoid of logic. They're obviously going to make the most of the situation they're in and utilise the talented people they have to make a new game the best it can be. [quote]They watch as another studio creates ViDoc's to showcase it's story and work.[/quote] You do realise that in the vast majority of instances they have credited Bungie for establishing this franchise, right? They are not obligated to bring this up EVERY time they make a video about Halo. [quote]I've been reading some comments about people who played the game at New York Comic-Con, none of them infuriate me more than when they write that Bungie could never have achieved this graphically a good looking game, or that the multiplayer is so much fun etc. 343 Industries had a ridiculously large budget for the game, not to mention they got a timeframe rarely given to developers. They've been working on the game for over 3-4 years. They didn't have to build the assets from scratch.[/quote] The only time Bungie built the assets from scratch is when they first created Halo's engine... From Halo 2 onwards, it was the same engine used but retooled and edited. This is exactly the same thing 343i has done, and it [i]is[/i] clear that they've pulled it off better than Bungie ever did which you can see just by looking at a video showcasing the visual and artistic design of the game. You do know that Bungie got 3 year development cycles for their main Halo games, right? People like you need to stop treating 343i like they're the very incarnation of Lucifer just because they're continuing Bungie's work and have changed things around. If the future Halos were developed with that mindset then the series would be driven into the ground because it would remain the same static and sterile experience over and over.[/quote] 343i recently told the community to stop favoring their graphics over Bungie's, citing that Halo 4 is a 2012 game, naturally more advanced than Bungie's last attempt two years ago. But OP, if it means anything, Bungie has expressed only excitement towards 343i and Halo 4, with Marty personally supporting Davidge's music and style. You can think that Bungie is bitter, but it is based on no facts, only some nostalgic reverence for Bungie that makes you want to think they're bitter. I'm sure some of them feel sad to see Halo out of their hands, but a mature company will learn to move on and accept the newness to come.
    Reply Start Related Topic
    Post Preview Cancel
  • Juan Teran

    Juan Teran

    10/16/2012 2:37:49 AM Permalink
    [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] the real Janaka [quote]People like you need to stop treating 343i like they're the very incarnation of Lucifer just because they're continuing Bungie's work and have changed things around. If the future Halos were developed with that mindset then the series would be driven into the ground because it would remain the same static and sterile experience over and over.[/quote]You either die a hero, or live long enough to see yourself become the villain.[/quote] Oh God... that made me laugh out loud. Seriously?
    Reply Start Related Topic
    Post Preview Cancel
  • Ozzy Onya A2Z

    Ozzy Onya A2Z

    10/16/2012 1:06:38 AM Permalink
    Relax Bungie made up Halo and 343i continue to make up more Halo for us to play. I'm sure there are mixed feeling from all sides. There isn't a definitive answer to this like Bungie is a hive mind or something. Live in the grey area a little, some would be loving Halo 4 and some would hate it, same as the rest of the community.
    Reply Start Related Topic
    Post Preview Cancel
  • Citrus raptor

    Citrus raptor

    10/15/2012 10:04:22 PM Permalink
    [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Madness87 I guarantee you, Bungie would have preferred that they got to keep the rights to the IP they created. It's as if Harry Potter is taken from JK Rowling and she can only watch as another writer continues Harry's story.[/quote]Not only the creator, but the fans. [quote]So yes, in my opinion, Bungie is silently bitter, anyone would be. I know I would. Ideally, Bungie was tiring of Halo. Forced schedules tend to do that. But, and I state this as a fact, there isn't a person in the studio, who wouldn't have wanted to hold onto Halo, so that they could revisit it after Destiny. That way, they could come back to the game fresh, if at all.[/quote]Exactly, keeping Halo fresh is accomplished by limiting its exposure, not by changing it after current trends and random [i]exciting new mindsets[/i]. [quote]We finished the fight. Halo's story was done. Microsoft is continuing it for the sake of continuing it. Everything that happens in Halo 4 is what Microsoft and 343 Industries made up.[/quote]Some people go on and on about how Bungie didn't finnish the entire story, didn't tie all loose ends, my question to them is when enough is enough? Let's say that the Master Chief wakes up on the Legendary planetoid, meets some Forerunner, finds out why they left, etc, etc, what would that accomplish? In order to warrant an entire new trilogy, one would have to come up with all sorts of new things to flesh it out. Doing so would inevitably leave the story with just as many loose ends, or an uncannily resolved situation, when its end finally comes. [quote]Destiny is unlikely to match the success of Halo.[/quote]One can only hope it does.[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] ajw34307 The only time Bungie built the assets from scratch is when they first created Halo's engine... From Halo 2 onwards, it was the same engine used but retooled and edited. This is exactly the same thing 343i has done, [/u]and it [i]is[/i] clear that they've pulled it off better than Bungie ever did which you can see just by looking at a video showcasing the visual and artistic design of the game.[/u][/quote]Opinion, that [i]is[/i] all that is. (I'm terrified of certain consensus such as the public believing that 343i's version of Halo is what Halo should have been all along, so I'm going to hit much harder than I actually wan't just to give a voice to the opposition). I get it now. There are those who secretly wished that Halo was a different franchise all along, and are now thrilled that 343i are changing it into the franchise they always wanted. But to believe that 343i's [i]contribution[/i] (visual, in this case) is what is good for Halo, is an opinion, one that isn't biased on the rules of Halo. Bias is everything. If one is indifferent to change, one has othing to say, since this indifference isn't in favour of the foundation that is subject to change, but to the change itself. Halo had a lot a virtues. These virtues were why I--and many other--liked it so much, why I for instance prefered it to Marathon which essentially is a [i]gritier[/i], [i]harder[/i]--in terms of sci-fi--version of Halo. 343i's version of Halo is yet another step in another direction. More than one step actually. So for me it's completely reasonable to become bitter when it no longer is wha it once was. Is that so hard to understand/accept? They have completely different virtues. They do not strive towards the same visuals. They do everything different, even the music, art direction, gameplay, cinematic direction, style of script, how to use culling/design levels, make skyboxes, etc. But of course, it's all for the [i]better[/i] isn't is? Which also is understandable; why would anyone want to devote years of their life on mimicking someone else's style? Here's the thing, if one doesn't mind change, who are one to say that change should be welcomed by those who liked something as it was; liked the Halo [b]because[/b] of how Bungie handeled everything? In my eyes, 343i aren't showing any respect to the crowd that supported Halo cause of what it stood for. Now my support, and my money, have hepled fund a cause I do not agree with (indirectly), which is the cause of my bitterness. And even though this thread isn't about you or me, I believe the reasons I listed are more than enough to turn Bungie bitter. [b]Madness87[/b] summed it up pretty good: [quote]Why do you think they chose independence from Microsoft? Why do you think they worded their contract with Activision exactly like that? So that this never happens to them again.[/quote] [b]343i are keeping Halo [i]alive[/i] by changing it.[/b] You pretty much said it yourself. [quote]People like you need to stop treating 343i like they're the very incarnation of Lucifer just because they're continuing Bungie's work and have changed things around. If the future Halos were developed with that mindset then the series would be driven into the ground because it would remain the same static and sterile experience over and over.[/quote]You either die a hero, or live long enough to see yourself become the villain. [quote]but the very least you can say for them is that their writers have absolutely and completely given the canon their full attention and made it a primary priority for the extra canonical material to be interweaved with the games.[/quote]By kicking out everything that Bungie buildt and replacing it with their own ideals and details, stuff that they like and are willing to invest in. Stuff like the Infinity and Spartan IVs. [quote][/quote]If Bungie isn't bitter I congratulate them; they're far better people than I could ever dream of being. The people over at 343i are a very competent/talanted bunch, I just hope they understand what immence wave they are riding on (they even piggybacked on Bungies own engine!). Maybe in a handfull of years, when they too have tired of Halo, they can prove themselves worthy by creating their own universe from [u]scratch[/u]. I'm looking forward to it!
    Reply Start Related Topic
    Post Preview Cancel
preload icon
preload icon
preload icon
You are not allowed to view this content.