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Dont Pass Gass
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    Oblivion328

    Oblivion328

    10/23/2012 4:58:24 AM Permalink
    [quote]So 343i and Karen Traviss just basically took a giant dump on the hopeful and idealistic ending of Halo 3. Not cool, not cool.[/quote] Yeah... "We've been slaughtering each other for nearly three decades, but let's just forget all that and be best friends forever." [Edited on 10.22.2012 9:03 PM PDT]
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    nemesishunter7
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    crumpster212

    crumpster212

    10/22/2012 9:55:41 PM Permalink
    [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Primo84 I finished reading it yesterday, so obvious spoilers below. Honestly, I prefer [i]Glasslands[/i]. [i]Thursday War[/i] wasn't bad, but it just didn't tickle my fancy like it's predecessor did. I was really geared up for everything Venezia, and the author didn't deliver at all on that. Forze and Raia's story arc was a damn chore to read; it was dragged out far too long and got stale rather quickly. I realized about half way through Phillips' time on Sangheilios that the entire book was going to be a long-winded setup for Halo 4. Introduce Infinity, Del Rio, Lasky, etc. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if the Covenant faction in Requiem in H4 is lead by our buddy Jul. (I'm calling it: you heard it here.) Granted, I should have seen it coming, but damn. [/quote]It is lead by Jul :)
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    chubbz

    chubbz

    10/22/2012 9:18:43 PM Permalink
    Finished the book the other night. Was hoping for Traviss to move away from the unjustified Halsey bashing and the ODSTs being all warm and fuzzy, but I was disappointed. I'm getting kinda tired of being needlessly reminded that the ODSTs don't like Halsey and that Mal should've shot her. Other than all that, I thought it was still a solid book. It's doing what it's supposed to, which is tie together all of the different Halo storylines in prep for Halo 4. [Edited on 10.22.2012 1:19 PM PDT]
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    acieh1

    acieh1

    10/13/2012 10:01:08 AM Permalink
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    MastaSin
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    OrderedComa

    OrderedComa

    10/12/2012 5:12:29 AM Permalink
    [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] the real Janaka Yeah, noticed this too, and it didn't click with my preconceptions of them. I know the Prophets handled the core bulk of the politics and technology, but the Elites still had a high position within the Covenant, they still had a lot of responsibilities. So they were brilliant military strategists with a ruthless special operations cell, and now--apparently--they're completely lost without the Prophests guidence? It's one thing that they're struggling with restructuring their society and figuring out what to do when now that they're suddenly resposible for their own fate, but this new order doesn't mean that they've suddenly lost every ounce of intelligence they once had, or does it? Had they really become no more than mindless puppets after their time as second highest? [/quote] The Return did a very good job of depicting it, the Elites were having a lot of difficulties, but they weren't helpless, they could still repair for the most part the technology they had and maybe create more of it...but they were still in a fairly bad position at that time. They were having difficulties but they weren't helpless and utterly retarded being unable to even tie their shoes without someone showing them how and doing it for them. Glasslands Trilogy went totally over-board with it, like it did with everything else...like I'm fine with there being a faction or two like the Servants of Abiding Truth or the Storm Faction, or small groups that start banding together that still want to continue the war with humans, but Traviss acting like [i][b]all[/b][/i] of the Elites are that way when it's clearly been established to not be the case aggravates me to no end and is taking things way too far. Anyways, I liked what the Return had done and was hinting at with the Elites...though personally I think even that took a little bit too far as well, but it was more in line with reality and what we know about the Elites than Glasslands Trilogy. In answer to your questions, nah, I don't think so...and if 343i does, I'm really going to have to question their knowledge/intelligence on such issues and their story-telling capabilities >_> I'm hoping they don't think that though, because that would just be stupid and silly.
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    Pizzaguy199
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    DecepticonCobra

    DecepticonCobra

    10/12/2012 4:07:24 AM Permalink
    [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] ajw34307 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] DecepticonCobra [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] ajw34307 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] CoRaMo It seems to me that Karen Traviss wants us to root for the Covenant, or at least the Storm, instead of Humanity.[/quote] I don't think it's so much rooting for the Covenant, but rather rooting for the Elites. They've unwillingly subscribed to receive a monthly delivery package containing Maggie's shyte, and while it's established that there are 2 sides to humanity's mindset the only side that's actually developed is the one that's screaming "FECK THE ELITES!" so we end up being alienated (heh heh heh) from humanity and rooting for the Elites who were right all along.[/quote] You'd think a true post-war novel would tackle multiple sides of the factions, you know like the human sympathizers among the Elite youth AND the anti-human characters. Or ONI and it's fiendish plans AND pro-peace forces within the UNSC. Nope, everybody is a dick.[/quote] And what of this supposed growing number of Sangheili youth who are all for peace with humanity? They're name-dropped like [i]once[/i] and then never mentioned again...[/quote] They were mentioned?
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    JJAB91

    JJAB91

    10/11/2012 11:27:10 PM Permalink
    [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Xd00999 I can't think of a single story Thel or Hood has appeared in as a central character[/quote] You forgetting Hood at an important role in the middle of Ghosts of Onyx?
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    Sandtrap

    Sandtrap

    10/11/2012 10:24:51 PM Permalink
    [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] the real Janaka [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] anton1792 Something I noticed in this book that wasn't really present in it's predecessor was the dehumanization of the Elites; comparisons with animals leading to the conclusion that they are something less than animals, and portrayals of them utterly succumbing to base instincts whilst tearing people a part. Ehhh, no thanks, Karen.[/quote]Yeah, noticed this too, and it didn't click with my preconceptions of them. I know the Prophets handled the core bulk of the politics and technology, but the Elites still had a high position within the Covenant, they still had a lot of responsibilities. So they were brilliant military strategists with a ruthless special operations cell, and now--apparently--they're completely lost without the Prophests guidence? It's one thing that they're struggling with restructuring their society and figuring out what to do when now that they're suddenly resposible for their own fate, but this new order doesn't mean that they've suddenly lost every ounce of intelligence they once had, or does it? Had they really become no more than mindless puppets after their time as second highest? [/quote] That's the thing with every Halo novel I've ever read that I don't like. The covenant always seem to be portrayed as advanced because of their technology, but somehow stupid. And the thing is, folks seem to ignore the fact that Elites were space capable before the founding of the Covenant. They were at war with the prophets, and were far better at space combat then the prophets were. But the prophets had their hidden ace. But I can see how after serving for so long and getting used to another race focusing scientifically they'd be a little rusty on their own, but not stupid.
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    Citrus raptor

    Citrus raptor

    10/11/2012 9:14:48 PM Permalink
    [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] anton1792 Something I noticed in this book that wasn't really present in it's predecessor was the dehumanization of the Elites; comparisons with animals leading to the conclusion that they are something less than animals, and portrayals of them utterly succumbing to base instincts whilst tearing people a part. Ehhh, no thanks, Karen.[/quote]Yeah, noticed this too, and it didn't click with my preconceptions of them. I know the Prophets handled the core bulk of the politics and technology, but the Elites still had a high position within the Covenant, they still had a lot of responsibilities. So they were brilliant military strategists with a ruthless special operations cell, and now--apparently--they're completely lost without the Prophests guidence? It's one thing that they're struggling with restructuring their society and figuring out what to do when now that they're suddenly resposible for their own fate, but this new order doesn't mean that they've suddenly lost every ounce of intelligence they once had, or does it? Had they really become no more than mindless puppets after their time as second highest?
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    anton1792

    anton1792

    10/11/2012 8:44:09 PM Permalink
    Something I noticed in this book that wasn't really present in it's predecessor was the dehumanization of the Elites; comparisons with animals leading to the conclusion that they are something less than animals, and portrayals of them utterly succumbing to base instincts whilst tearing people a part. Ehhh, no thanks, Karen.
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    Chronarch

    Chronarch

    10/11/2012 7:25:45 PM Permalink
    [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] DecepticonCobra [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] ajw34307 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] CoRaMo It seems to me that Karen Traviss wants us to root for the Covenant, or at least the Storm, instead of Humanity.[/quote] I don't think it's so much rooting for the Covenant, but rather rooting for the Elites. They've unwillingly subscribed to receive a monthly delivery package containing Maggie's shyte, and while it's established that there are 2 sides to humanity's mindset the only side that's actually developed is the one that's screaming "FECK THE ELITES!" so we end up being alienated (heh heh heh) from humanity and rooting for the Elites who were right all along.[/quote] You'd think a true post-war novel would tackle multiple sides of the factions, you know like the human sympathizers among the Elite youth AND the anti-human characters. Or ONI and it's fiendish plans AND pro-peace forces within the UNSC. Nope, everybody is a dick.[/quote] And what of this supposed growing number of Sangheili youth who are all for peace with humanity? They're name-dropped like [i]once[/i] and then never mentioned again...
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    DecepticonCobra

    DecepticonCobra

    10/11/2012 6:12:43 PM Permalink
    [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] MaxRealflugel I think if Traviss tried that the books would be three times longer and I suspect a few folk would be confused by having multiple factions on both sides. Personally, I'd like it. But I don't think 343i would go down that route, even if both sides are (theoretically) capable. It might be mentioned one day as happening. [/quote] She jumps around continuously among her characters within the same chapters, people can handle a few more groups if they can follow along with the already jumpy narrative.
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    a casual banana

    a casual banana

    10/11/2012 4:41:32 PM Permalink
    Maybe Hood will get replaced by Lasky? [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] car15 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Wolverfrog Hood's useless. I don't know why people view him as this amazing badass [/quote] Because Ron Perlman.[/quote]
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    MaxRealflugel

    MaxRealflugel

    10/11/2012 3:33:25 PM Permalink
    I think if Traviss tried that the books would be three times longer and I suspect a few folk would be confused by having multiple factions on both sides. Personally, I'd like it. But I don't think 343i would go down that route, even if both sides are (theoretically) capable. It might be mentioned one day as happening.
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    DecepticonCobra

    DecepticonCobra

    10/10/2012 6:37:02 PM Permalink
    [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] ajw34307 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] CoRaMo It seems to me that Karen Traviss wants us to root for the Covenant, or at least the Storm, instead of Humanity.[/quote] I don't think it's so much rooting for the Covenant, but rather rooting for the Elites. They've unwillingly subscribed to receive a monthly delivery package containing Maggie's shyte, and while it's established that there are 2 sides to humanity's mindset the only side that's actually developed is the one that's screaming "FECK THE ELITES!" so we end up being alienated (heh heh heh) from humanity and rooting for the Elites who were right all along.[/quote] You'd think a true post-war novel would tackle multiple sides of the factions, you know like the human sympathizers among the Elite youth AND the anti-human characters. Or ONI and it's fiendish plans AND pro-peace forces within the UNSC. Nope, everybody is a dick.
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    Chronarch

    Chronarch

    10/10/2012 6:03:49 PM Permalink
    [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] CoRaMo It seems to me that Karen Traviss wants us to root for the Covenant, or at least the Storm, instead of Humanity.[/quote] I don't think it's so much rooting for the Covenant, but rather rooting for the Elites. They've unwillingly subscribed to receive a monthly delivery package containing Maggie's shyte, and while it's established that there are 2 sides to humanity's mindset the only side that's actually developed is the one that's screaming "FECK THE ELITES!" so we end up being alienated (heh heh heh) from humanity and rooting for the Elites who were right all along.
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    Citrus raptor

    Citrus raptor

    10/10/2012 5:57:06 PM Permalink
    [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] chubbz I liked this thread right up until we started discussing the canon legitimacy of Halo 3's [i]TV commercials[/i]. Seriously, I love Halo canon and will talk about just as much as any of you, but that just isn't necessary. [/quote]I'm sorry, this will be my final post:[quote][/quote]"Everything that Bungie has ever approved is canonical. But even then, certain things trump others. In order of canonical influence:"... Thank you for making it so simple. So with this hierarchy, please do tell me why THE ENTIRE DIORAMA IS NOW NON-CANON? It clearly says "certain things trump other", not everything that's below is non-canon, nor does it say that if more than a couple of errors are found the entire thing is discarded (which is what you're doing). [quote]How was New Mombasa reimagined to the point that it invalidated the events of Halo 2? Both games took place in different parts of the city. Aside from geographical oversight there is nothing to contradict the canon established in both games[/quote]It didn't, that's my point, that's why I used those examples. Now, apply that to [i]Believe[/i], what about the redesign of the area surrounding Voi, and the areas MC fought at which are depicted in the diorama break canon, in that case? And to be really clear, the city is completely redesigned ([url=http://i439.photobucket.com/albums/qq112/Citrus-limon/MombasaMap-1modded.jpg]3[/url], [url=http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20091125143739/halo/images/9/9a/Mombasa_View_From_Sky.jpg]ODST[/url]). What exactly are you arguing about? [quote]Like I said, you're going to bunk an assumption with an assumption? Yes you have come to a conclusion based on what evidence you can scrounge, but ultimately your conclusion is merely an assumption as there is still nothing definitive to prove the point you're trying to make. We'd be going around in circles here.[/quote]It is not an assumption, the referenses I've used are crystal clear, completely unambiguous. I'm arguing that humanity on Earth 2607-10 have buildt a [i]Museum of Humanity[/i] in which there is a diorama that commemorates peace, and that them doing so is canon. To be even clearer, again: the diorama consists of buildings, marines, covenant, etc, that are made as accurate as possible (from archive records). Marines have been interviewed and provided context for the situation, anecdotes, etc. [quote]represents something that did not occur in the plot of the Halo storyline[/quote]Yes it did. There was a battle between the Covenant and the UNSC in the Vio area, during the time the Master Chief stopped by at Earth. You have provided nothing that states otherwise. The ad campaign features marines that when interviewed recall what happened during the war. WHAT exactly is it that any of them says that makes this entire ad non-canon?! NO ONE knew what happened to the Chief, THEY, believed that he was dead. It is not an assumtion of mine that they did not know what happened to the Chief, one of the marines clearly state that his body never was found. So how did they depict him in the diorama? They were the ones that made an assumption of what happened to him. What else did they know? [b]NOTE: I have never said anything about the diorama being propaganda.[/b] [quote]Yes you can go about and argue from a meta standpoint a position of propaganda or senility on the parts of every human still alive and contributing to the "accuracy" of the diorama when compared to the knowledge of a character like Petra who was also on the ground during most of the fighting in Africa who had a far clearer understanding of what unfolded in relation to the events of Halo 3. But again, it's a weak position built upon the assumption that it was either propaganda or user error.[/quote]So when you can't argue aginst something, it's weak? The diorama itself exists within Halo as a universe, it IS a representation of what it looked like during the war. The museum, marines, and loggs ARE within the Halo universe, and they do not contradict Halo 3 (aside from some errors, probably due to production and communication and the redesign aspect). The 2010 reissue of Fisrt Strike is the only thing you've provided that with the hierarchy logic could thump these events, but it doesn't retcon anything these marines have said, it doesn't inform Humanity what happened to Chief, so why would it decanonize?[quote]What I am arguing is that all the errors in the entire ad campaign add up a to a picture where there is a lack of credibility to the production studio in representing an actual story in the Halo universe[/quote]Entirely subjective.[quote]Read this to better discern for yourself what is canon vs assuming it could be canon and thus be considered canon in arguments until otherwise stated which is what you're doing.[/quote]Yet you believe that you're capable of determining that because "there is a lack of credibility to the production studio in representing an actual story in the Halo universe", it is not canon, even though Staten clearly defines--on the link you provided--that "Everything that Bungie has ever approved is canonical"+hierarchy rules? [Edited on 10.10.2012 1:23 PM PDT]
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    chubbz

    chubbz

    10/10/2012 4:31:22 PM Permalink
    I liked this thread right up until we started discussing the canon legitimacy of Halo 3's [i]TV commercials[/i]. Seriously, I love Halo canon and will talk about just as much as any of you, but that just isn't necessary.
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    CoRaMo

    CoRaMo

    10/10/2012 4:11:27 PM Permalink
    It seems to me that Karen Traviss wants us to root for the Covenant, or at least the Storm, instead of Humanity.
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    EZcompany2ndsqd
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    LtColonelTzu

    LtColonelTzu

    10/10/2012 11:16:29 AM Permalink
    [quote]If you read instead of skim, you'll understand the meaning of "if assumptions are to be made". In this case they aren't, cause I never said they should. I based my conclusion on the evidence I found. [/quote] Like I said, you're going to bunk an assumption with an assumption? Yes you have come to a conclusion based on what evidence you can scrounge, but ultimately your conclusion is merely an assumption as there is still nothing definitive to prove the point you're trying to make. We'd be going around in circles here. [quote]That is not what the narrator said. What he did say was that the topography, buildings, soldiers, Covenant, vehicles, etc, were created as accurate as possible. He did not say that the diorama depicted an actual situation; that the records--for example--showed that a marine was dragged away from this particular point by a Jackal, and a Hunter did this and that exactly here. They based the diorama on anecdotes which parallels would have been evident if you actually had watched the fly-through and read and watched the interviews. Drawing that conclusion, seeing the similarities between what the marines recalled and what was shown, is as much of an assumption that is acceptable to make, but even so, I won't rely on it. What I do rely on is that out of the information provided, nothing was significant enough to change the plot/story. I repeat: [b]"ONI hardly knew what was happening in the heart of the action, since they're still investigating and cross-referencing." and may I add: fifty years after the event (still!).[/b][/quote] On the topic of assumptions, where did the bold statement come from. As you state as accurate as possible. So a consensus was clearly made that it is rather accurate to consider the Chief present at New Mombasa arming a grenade and suddenly turning the tide of the land battle at New Mombasa vs the events of the game. As Uprising, Halo 3, and ODST would go on to demonstrate, the Chief never returned to New Mombasa after Halo 2. Also, read the bonus chapter Petra at the end of the First Strike reissue. The events surrounding the final battle were rather clear for a civilian reporter on the anniversary of the battle. The main character Petra was fully aware of the battle of Voi the Chief participated in, the arrival of the Flood on Earth, and part of Forward Unto Dawn's voyage into the Portal with an understanding that something referred to as the Ark lay beyond it. She knew word for word what Cortana's message was to the Chief. So your assumption that ONI didn't know how to reconstruct the events of the battle, "fifty years after the event (still!)" as you say, is rather weak. [quote]You might be correct on this, but since you don't provide any evidence of it, I will have to disregard this part. I've done my best to find every piece of the ad campaign and go though all information I could find as thoroughly as possible, but I have not seen such notes. [/quote] I don't even think I need to explain how this train of 'I did not see therefore it does not exist' logic is wrong. [quote]You do realise that these are production errors due to poor planing and bad communication? Is Halo 2 not canon cause ODST reimagined New Mombasa, is Landfall not canon cause Halo 3 took place during the night, is Cryptum not canon cause there only is place for seven holographic representations of the installations in the control room of the Ark, are none of the games canon just cause none of them represent the what effects of a plasma pistol are canonically? I can go on..On top of that, none of the diorama discrepancies chance the meaning of the diorama, nor do they alter the plot. I despise redesigning, but I would go as far as to say that it breaks canon. Every Brute being of the Stalker class is the equivalent of a type-o, a bug, a misunderstanding, it doesn't break canon, probably due to some sort of limitation.[/quote] Of course production errors will come up in ad campaigns, given what you're citing as production errors you don't seem to be able to differentiate how things come off as canon and how aesthetics alone are not what makes or breaks canon. To break it further piece by piece... [quote]Is Halo 2 not canon cause ODST reimagined New Mombasa[/quote] How was New Mombasa reimagined to the point that it invalidated the events of Halo 2? Both games took place in different parts of the city. Aside from geographical oversight there is nothing to contradict the canon established in both games (sure there are moments that caused suspension of disbelief on how quickly the Brutes were able to dispatch every single Elite in the areas the ODSTs operated in, but that isn't a canon issue). [quote]is Landfall not canon cause Halo 3 took place during the night[/quote] The part of Landfall that took place during the ODSTs operation to track the Chief occurred in another part of the world. Different time zone. [quote]is Cryptum not canon cause there only is place for seven holographic representations of the installations in the control room of the Ark[/quote] Cryptum comes after Halo 3, so obviously there is no way for Bungie to magically account for more than seven spaces during Halo 3's development several years in the past. Regardless, the fact that the extra rings were destroyed or rendered inoperable by the events of Halo 3 changes nothing when it comes to what transpired. Canon still remains intact. [quote]are none of the games canon just cause none of them represent the what effects of a plasma pistol are canonically[/quote] Now you're just straying off from the main point that this is a discussion about story details. Gameplay mechanics itself never has nor ever will be canonical for the sake of the enjoyment of [i]playing[/i] the game. It's something that need not be stated. [quote]On top of that, none of the diorama discrepancies chance the meaning of the diorama, nor do they [b]alter the plot[/b].[/quote] And herein lies the problem. The diorama as a whole, regardless of the minor discrepancies that come off as a result of actual production errors, represents something that did [u]not[/u] occur in the plot of the Halo storyline. Yes you can go about and argue from a meta standpoint a position of propaganda or senility on the parts of every human still alive and contributing to the "accuracy" of the diorama when compared to the knowledge of a character like Petra who was also on the ground during most of the fighting in Africa who had a far clearer understanding of what unfolded in relation to the events of Halo 3. But again, it's a weak position built upon the assumption that it was either propaganda or user error. And before one goes to cite Halo:Reach as a counter example keep in mind that the diorama did not come packaged to consumers of the limited and legendary edition as a reconstructed record of events recovered by ONI as to what transpired on Reach from the perspective of Noble Team. [quote]I despise redesigning, but I would go as far as to say that it breaks canon. Every Brute being of the Stalker class is the equivalent of a type-o, a bug, a misunderstanding, it doesn't break canon, probably due to some sort of limitation.[/quote] Hardly arguing a point that aesthetics means canon error. What I am arguing is that all the errors in the [i]entire[/i] ad campaign add up a to a picture where there is a lack of credibility to the production studio in representing an [i]actual[/i] story in the Halo universe vs feeding consumers superficial or completely unrelated information of a product for the sake of attracting consumer interest to said product rather than representing the product itself. Typos happen all the time in other Halo media. Look no further than early versions of the reissues of the original three novels where 750 Covenant vessels bore down at Reach, or that the battle itself occurred in 2542. It's obvious those are typos and are promptly ignored by the community at large whenever they spring up. The focus is still on the core chunk of whatever story is being conveyed. As I said earlier Staten had a clear cut way for fans to interpret canon. Content featured in ads were to be disregarded by events in games and the novels unless otherwise rectoned by Bungie themselves. The Believe campaign fell under those rules. While 343i could choose to recton the Believe campaign to be an actual fact in the Halo Universe as they had with the line about the 800+ colonies of humanity, the fact remains that to date they have not. And no, just because 343i hasn't said anything about it since taking the reigns from Bungie does not magically mean that Believe (and every single other ad campaign during prior to Halo 3) is suddenly canon. [quote]It is the [i]exact same terain as the one on Tsavo Highway[/i]. There are even parts of the fallen space tether there (although in another scale). It is the [i]same landscape as Landfall[/i] and High Grounds too, they just looks a bit different cause they're different media, the diorama is made out of, you know, plastic and cardboard or whatever.[/quote] Terrain is [i]similar[/i] but hardly "exact" as you say, and hardly indicative as being a representation of the battle that took place along Tsavo Highway. Furthermore again Landfall takes place in another country so that connection doesn't even exist. [quote]You have yet to provide evidence of something that directly states that it isn't canon.[/quote] Not everything has a direct statement that says this is not canon. If that were the rule then every announcement trailer for every game would be canon because no official went "This is not canon" for them. Read [url=http://www.bungie.net/Forums/posts.aspx?postID=33630397&postRepeater1-p=1]this[/url] to better discern for yourself what [i]is[/i] canon vs assuming it [i]could[/i] be canon and thus be considered canon in arguments until otherwise stated which is what you're doing.
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    Quantum

    Quantum

    10/10/2012 9:38:05 AM Permalink
    High Charity and the Portal business still bears thoughts: there was absolutely 0 explanation given or documentation/anything how a 300km long Flood spewing vessel managed to head into the Portal while leaving Earth untouched. While the factions forming, the war etc in Thursday is understandable given Hood's final dialogue in Halo 3, ONI's absolutely retarded actions, are not. Firstly, you commit to peace, and then you start planetary bombardment of the species that saved you in the first place? Make infected crops just for the LOLz? Think about a colony on Sanghelios? I can even understand wanting the Elites to be under a civil war but ONI went full retard in the Thursday War.
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