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8/18/2012 4:15:34 AM
198
Unfortunately, the Title System hasn't worked
Apologies if my history is slightly off or generalized, I'm doing this straight from memory. I'm talking about events that happened 5 years ago.
[b][u]Why the title system was put in place[/u][/b]
The title system was put in place after enough members asked for it, and the web-team was able to find time to design one. The title system was not put in place with unanimous support from membership however. The two sides' arguments can be boiled down to this:
[u]1. Those who wanted it[/u]:
It will encourage better behavior among members, It will do this in two ways.
1. It will provide for members an incentive to be an active member that behaves within the rules of the forums.
2. Members with titles will be positive examples to newer members.
The community will move past the initial elitism, so those concerns shouldn't stop what would be a good improvement to the website.
[u]2. Those who didn't[/u]:
It will garner elitism in the community. Members will use titles to show that their points are better, and new members will quote them simply because they have higher titles. It's the same reason we don't show when members joined next to their name anymore.
I was in the camp that supported having titles when the idea came out, or I was at least neutral towards them. I also felt that member join-dates should be shown. Eventually, the new system was put in place by Achronos and the webteam, and we've used it for almost 5 years now. Time flies when you're having fun.
[b][u]Has the title system worked as intended?[/u][/b]
If you read the title to the post, then you should know my answer: No, it hasn't worked. I do not believe that the title system has generated better community behavior, and I do think that elitism has emerged from the title system. The same threads about The Flood and [insert most recent Bungie-made game here] forums being filled with dumb posts and there not being enough moderators are posted just like the threads that came before them.
In addition to this, there is elitism that comes from titles. Almost immediately after the title system was implemented, a mythic members group was created, and a legendary members group was created. I wouldn't be surprised if a heroic members group existed. There's nothing wrong with groups being created, but they do show how almost immediately the title system had begun to divide members into (oh, this next word will get me in trouble) classes.
I honestly do not believe the elitism to be that strong of an issue, but I think it would be foolish to deny its existence. To say that members don't quote mythic members simply because they are mythic members would be like saying that members don't quote moderators and employees just because they are employees. So, we still have elitism, and most would say that The Flood and other forums haven't improved because of anything other than a decrease in activity. Whether or not you think that the title system works well in determining who gets what title, isn't it fair to say that the title system hasn't worked as advertised?
tl;dr: Titles have been around for well over 4 years now. Elitism has developed, but the same problems still exist and don't seem to be improving.
If you agree it's broken, and think it can be fixed, how can it be fixed? If you don't agree it's broken, as I'm sure most of you won't, please explain why.
[Edited on 08.17.2012 8:19 PM PDT]
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I thought I had read this before..
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Nader121 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] squirrel dude[/quote]Wut.[/quote] Wut.[/quote]Why...
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] squirrel dude[/quote]Wut.[/quote] Wut.
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I really only hear elitist thoughts by thoes who have a high K/D, in game rank and W/L. You see I cannot possibly possess an opinion according to science because I am outright terrible at the game. [Edited on 08.21.2012 12:20 PM PDT]
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[i]"Don't mistake your rank and number for superiority. The oldest child may learn from the youngest."[/i]
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] elmicker [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Achronos Despite being professionally insulted at the start of this thread[/quote]While I was aware squirrel dude can certainly be inflamatory, I never once imagined that one can obtain employment as a professional insulter. Livin' the dream.[/quote]The starting salary is only $0.00 per hour, but it's still the best job ever. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] ankerd123 yes they do it with mods and Bungie employees. Also there is no elitism what so ever. [/quote]wut. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Jose291 even if broken it works as it was intended and created.[/quote]Wut. [Edited on 08.21.2012 11:18 AM PDT]
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Cryptic [/quote]I'm not so sure what a good idea it is to have the only difference between this two-title-dichotomy you've created being an economic one. While the current system certainly is prone to elitist feelings and remarks based on join date-centric titles, one where people who have a different ("better") title because they paid or, in some situations had the money for (where someone else might not). The only problem the OP sees with the title system (and the only misconception I could see anyone coming up with about the pitfalls of the title system) seem to be that it [u]is[/u] harboring elitism (which I do not believe and have never seen conclusive evidence of) and that it doesn't work the way it should (his proof for this is laughable at best). I don't see the need to segment the Bungie.net Community by who can and cannot afford a Bungie Premium Subscription Service (even if it's only 20 bucks). The title system is fine as it is. It's only fault (I think) is that there's not another title after Mythic for a 7 year account (purple, maybe?).
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Jose291 I think people who post about member titles are people who would like to be different and think too much about something irrelevant. It is getting annoying these kinds of posts. As I stated before, if something is not broken why fix it, even if broken it works as it was intended and created.[/quote] Like always, your wisdom is plentiful Josh.
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I think people who post about member titles are people who would like to be different and think too much about something irrelevant. It is getting annoying these kinds of threads. As I stated before, if something is not broken why fix it, even if broken it works as it was intended and created. [Edited on 08.21.2012 9:56 AM PDT]
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] squirrel dude Yeah, I got nothin. I don't have a solution. That's why I was throwing that out to the community. But hey, you have to start a discussion somewhere. [/quote] Well I have started a discussion over [url=http://www.bungie.net/Forums/posts.aspx?postID=74306429]here[/url] on improving the system...No system is perfect and everything can be improved in minute ways to give it that special something to make it better.
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At first I feel like there was a level of Elitism. However now that more and more people are progressing through the ranks, people are starting to realize that a mythic member doesn't know any more then a normal member.
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What elitism are you talking about? I've never now, in my over 3 years of posting here, ever experienced somebody in a serious manner using their title as justification, evidence, or any sort of proof to assert authority or superiority over any member as a result of conversation.
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The title system isn't really the problem, it's the attitude of certain members, and there's no real way to fix that.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] squirrel dude If you agree it's broken, and think it can be fixed, how can it be fixed? If you don't agree it's broken, as I'm sure most of you won't, please explain why. [/quote]Here's my idea. [u]Bar Colors[/u] Yellow - Employee Salmon - Moderator Blue - Bungie Pro Member Grey - Bungie Member Bungie Pro Members would pay an annual fee for additional features. Money could go toward the Bungie foundation. [u]Bungie Members[/u] * Create Posts * Create Groups * Contribute In Groups * Access Online Stats * Choose Your Title From The Ones You've Unlocked [u]Bungie Pro Members[/u] Everything above and the following... * Customize Groups * Customize Avatar * Name Change Once A Year * Access To Betas * Early Access To DLC Content * Other Bungie Game Related Stuff Titles would be unlocked by earning achievements in Destiny or on Bungie.net. An example would be signing into Bungie.net for X number of days in a row. Another example would be creating a group and recruiting X number of members to join. This way, people won't know what titles you've unlocked and will think you just like one title more than the others. A number on your title bar could represent how many years you've been a member (like Xbox LIVE gamercards) if you'd like to throw in some "elitism" for the win.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Achronos Despite being professionally insulted at the start of this thread[/quote]While I was aware squirrel dude can certainly be inflamatory, I never once imagined that one can obtain employment as a professional insulter. Livin' the dream.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] burritosenior Your reasoning is wrong though. Achronos said he put it in just because it's fun. Now make a thread based on that revelation.[/quote] OMG I QUOTED A MYTHIC BECUASE HE IS MYTHIC OMG OMG OMG. OT: lolno I don't think I've ever seen one person do this. yes they do it with mods and Bungie employees. Also there is no elitism what so ever. Please use evidence to support your claims. K thanks bye. [Edited on 08.21.2012 12:50 AM PDT]
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I'm pretty tired right now, so forgive me if I'm not terribly eloquent in my speech. I think to an extent, you overestimate the positive effect the titles were supposed to have in the community. They were simply meant to [i]encourage[/i] better behavior in the forums, and the fact that they're a spectacle worthy of the scrutiny they receive indicates they've to some end done their job. You seem to think their purpose was to "clean up the streets" a la numerous 1970's "good cop in a system of lies and corruption where the police chief turns out to be the drug kingpin in the end, but the unorthodox and controversial but effective protagonist catches him and gets a big promotion and begins to change things on a systematic scale" crime flick. As was aforementioned, newcomers arrive, see the titles, wonder what the deal is, find out by some means. This simple process alone should inspire the future dedicated members to behave in a manner becoming of the higher titles-- and from a community standpoint, the demographic of members who do/are going to stick around are the most important. So this rationale causes me to find it interesting that you accuse the titles of not doing their job by: a) not inspiring better behavior by way of example, and; b) causing elitism. I think these flippant accusations of "elitism" are often unfounded. You want to cry elitism? Cite some examples of Legendaries/Mythics saying "your opinion is invalid because you are merely a regular member." [i]That's[/i] elitism. Now, stratification, on the other hand? Well, isn't that rather the point of the title system? And as was also aforementioned, stratification doesn't necessarily beget superiority and/or inferiority. If someone is a Legendary or a Mythic, they've clearly done things to earn that title. It makes nothing they have to say superior or more substantial to that of anyone else, only more reputable. This kind of stratification is seen... well, everywhere. Put it this way. Wouldn't you trust the opinion of someone who's worked at a company for twenty years and has risen through the ranks to a position of authority over the opinion of the entry-level grunt who's been there for six months? Of course you would, why wouldn't you? Now, this analogy is somewhat flawed, because with that salty, time-tested relic's position of authority attained through his/her rank rising comes actual, tangible influence and power. He or she can rework the system to suit his or her needs and screw over everyone below. Now, refer once again to my previous statement that the titles do not necessarily indicate superiority. Mythics don't have special privileges that Legendaries do not, and so forth down the chain. There's no power to be had. That's why Mythics don't promote to Forum Ninjas. Blerg. I'm tired.
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[i]Eugh[/i] 1. We don't know exactly how it works 2. Why should we care? I was super excited when I got mythic back in 2008, and I admit to hating when losing it to breaking a rule accidentally. Other than that, i could care less what "rank" anyone else is. I'll interact with them the same as if they had joined 3 years prior.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] MasterSin [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] CrazzySnipe55 After re-reading both the OP and Achronos's post, I have come to a conclusion: people are putting too much faith into Duardo's predictions. For example, with the OP citing the fact that he got Heroic back right after having been banned. I have a feeling that he thinks this is a prime example of the title system failing because he is thinking of the title system working in terms of pure time and not by a system of pink t-points. For example: You need 1000 pink t-points to be a heroic member, which is accumulated by a normal member with a normal ppd in one year. But, if, after a ban, you have 1000 pink t-points left over, you will be a heroic member again once the system re-checks you. So time is only relevant when bans are not involved (as far as I can tell). Looking back on it, much of the OP's argument relies on the fact that he (somehow; magically) knows how the title system works and why it was made. When in fact the best guess he has of how it works was made by Duardo and isn't proven to be true (that isn't to say that they aren't, I'm sure, amazing guesses; they're just not proven), and he seems to be refusing to believe the system's creator on the subject of why it was created (as per Verachi's quotes), so I'm not sure what more can be done in that department. All in all: OP is very confused on the workings of the world in which he resides (BNet) and still continues to criticize the very foundation, purpose, and functionality of said workings.[/quote] Achronos's post ended pretty much any debate, just stop trying to make it debatable.[/quote] I wasn't, you clearly didn't read all of my post if you think that my post was inflammatory in any way and was anything but a mere observational remark.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] CrazzySnipe55 After re-reading both the OP and Achronos's post, I have come to a conclusion: people are putting too much faith into Duardo's predictions. For example, with the OP citing the fact that he got Heroic back right after having been banned. I have a feeling that he thinks this is a prime example of the title system failing because he is thinking of the title system working in terms of pure time and not by a system of pink t-points. For example: You need 1000 pink t-points to be a heroic member, which is accumulated by a normal member with a normal ppd in one year. But, if, after a ban, you have 1000 pink t-points left over, you will be a heroic member again once the system re-checks you. So time is only relevant when bans are not involved (as far as I can tell). Looking back on it, much of the OP's argument relies on the fact that he (somehow; magically) knows how the title system works and why it was made. When in fact the best guess he has of how it works was made by Duardo and isn't proven to be true (that isn't to say that they aren't, I'm sure, amazing guesses; they're just not proven), and he seems to be refusing to believe the system's creator on the subject of why it was created (as per Verachi's quotes), so I'm not sure what more can be done in that department. All in all: OP is very confused on the workings of the world in which he resides (BNet) and still continues to criticize the very foundation, purpose, and functionality of said workings.[/quote] Achronos's post ended pretty much any debate, just stop trying to make it debatable.
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After re-reading both the OP and Achronos's post, I have come to a conclusion: people are putting too much faith into Duardo's predictions. For example, with the OP citing the fact that he got Heroic back right after having been banned. I have a feeling that he thinks this is a prime example of the title system failing because he is thinking of the title system working in terms of pure time and not by a system of pink t-points. For example: You need 1000 pink t-points to be a heroic member, which is accumulated by a normal member with a normal ppd in one year. But, if, after a ban, you have 1000 pink t-points left over, you will be a heroic member again once the system re-checks you. So time is only relevant when bans are not involved (as far as I can tell). Looking back on it, much of the OP's argument relies on the fact that he (somehow; magically) knows how the title system works and why it was made. When in fact the best guess he has of how it works was made by Duardo and isn't proven to be true (that isn't to say that they aren't, I'm sure, amazing guesses; they're just not proven), and he seems to be refusing to believe the system's creator on the subject of why it was created (as per Verachi's quotes), so I'm not sure what more can be done in that department. All in all: OP is very confused on the workings of the world in which he resides (BNet) and still continues to criticize the very foundation, purpose, and functionality of said workings.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Achronos Despite being professionally insulted at the start of this thread, I should point out that basing your arguments on this kind of evidence will not work out in your favor. (that's because the system runs on a schedule, and when you first come off a ban, the system hasn't rechecked your account to see what your new trust value is minus the penalty from the ban - it just so happened that your account was updated an hour after you got off a ban. Short bans tend to not have deep penalties). Look, it is okay if you don't like the titles. But don't base your argument on systemic details you know nothing about. Keep your thoughts on things like how it affects the community to have the titles, don't worry about the implementation details that you don't have. That's a much more interesting conversation to read anyway. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] squirrel dude Quick Evidence that the system isn't effective - It took only an hour and just 4 posts after I got off a ban to get from member to fabled heroic member. [/quote][/quote] this Rechecking would explain the lag between my noble heroic and noble derank after a warning i got today. Thank you for an informative post.
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Waiting for your response to Acky, OP.
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SOOO much TL;DR... I am currently mad at the system so I agree it is bad. Once I get promoted I will be back to defend it.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] MasterSin Achronos just showed you how wrong you are and you're still arguing this?[/quote]Yes. He actually didn't say I was wrong, so much as say that I should avoid discussing the numbers behind the title system because we don't have them. Unfortunately the entire situation is ultimately a circular argument. - Me: ..... the system is flawed - Person 2: You don't have the numbers, so you can't say that - Me: We don't have the numbers because they've never been shown to us. Not my fault. - Person 2: We aren't shown the numbers because then someone could break it - Me: If we could break it, that means that the system is flawed - Person 2: You don't have the numbers, so you can't say that See the problem? [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] jyrine I always can't help but laugh when a member posts saying "This is the way this site works, and this is wrong." Really? You know [i]exactly[/i] how this site works? you've looked over the code? You designed (or help design) this site? Oh you didn't? Then with all due respect, shut up.[/quote]Nope. I don't know exactly how it works. I also don't know all the inner workings of a baseball team, but I can tell you that something is wrong with the Kansas City Royals organization. The title system isn't that broken, but you get my point. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] HipiO7 OP is jelly he's not a mythic anymore.[/quote]I'm more jelly covered than in injured CoD character.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] I ColdEmbrace I [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] thenewxegk [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] I ColdEmbrace I You're just a Heroic and you expect me to read that OP?[/quote]He made the 'history of the flood' thread on the forum, I think he knows what he's doing (despite the bias sent across Achronos' way.)[/quote] Bad "elitist" joke was bad.[/quote]Don't worry, I got it, just said that just in case!
